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Show ROCKEFELLER AND CARNEGIE ON MO Multi-millionaires Defend the Foundations They Have Endowed Before Federal Commission. LAIRD OF SKIBO IN MOST JOVIAL MOOD Causes Audience to Roar With Laughter; Oil Mag-nate Mag-nate Appears Sober and Sedate. NEW YORK, Feb. 5. John D. Rockefeller, Rock-efeller, Sr., and Andrew Carnegie testified testi-fied today before the federal commission commis-sion on industrial relations. They defended de-fended the foundations which they have endowed with their wealth, and neither would say he believed that the institutions insti-tutions constituted a menace to the religious, political or educational liberty lib-erty of the people of the United States, j A desire to promote tho welfare of mankind and that alone, they said, prompted them to establish the foundations founda-tions which bear their names. Widely different wag the manner in . which these two men faced the commis- i sion and the varied audience, which ! was composed largely of representa-; tives of labor, Socialists, individualists, and, members of the Industrial Workers Work-ers of the World. Mr. Carnegie went to the witnews stand from a seat in , the audience. He declined to sit while reading answers to a list of questions submitted by the commission or- while 1 ho was being interrogated. Mr. Carnegie Car-negie was in a jovial mood. Caused Much Laughter. The answers he gave to questions caused the audience and the commissioners commis-sioners to roar with laughter more than once. Mr. Carnegie enjoyed that. When he left the stand he said he had not spent such a pleasant afternoon in many years. In his testimony Mr. Carnegie' revealed re-vealed that up to the close of last year his donations totaled $32-1,657,399. His present business, he said, was to do all the good he couid in this world. Ho sketched the growth of his steel business and said "he never had such a good time in his life ' ' as when he was talking to his employees. The men liked him, too. ' ' When they call you andy instead of Andrew or Mr. Carnegie you know the bo3's are your friends' said he. Mr. Carnegie invited the commissioners commission-ers to visit the Carnegie institute in Pittsburg. Commissioner Walsh informed in-formed him the commission planned to hold hearings in Pittsburg at a later date and that it might accept his invitation. Rockefeller a Surprise. Mr. Rockefeller 's appearance as a witness was a surprise. It was learned after he left the stand that Sergeant-at-arms Egan went yesterday to Pocan-tico Pocan-tico hills, tho Rockefeller country estate, es-tate, and gave him the list of questions ques-tions that had been prepared for nim. He asked Mr. Rockefeller whether he would appear voluntarily as a witness. Mr. Rockefeller replied that he would be very glad to do bo. 3 te promised to appear Saturday morning. While Mr. Carnegie was on the stand, Mr. Rockefeller's private secretary presented pre-sented to Chairman Walsh a note containing con-taining answers to the questions submitted sub-mitted to Mr. Rockefeller and said that his employer Was outside and that if the answers did not suffice he would like to be put on the witness stand im-, mediately. Ho was asked to wait in a room used by the commissioners until un-til Mr. Carnegie had concluded. Mr. Rockefeller was assisted to the , , , ,mJ (Continued on Pago Two.) ROCKEFELLER 10 capegie mm fContinued from Page One.) witness stand by members of his personal per-sonal staff. Seating himsrlf with much difficulty, he leaned across a little table in front of him and looked at the audience. au-dience. Wheu he started to road his answers his voice was scarcely audible. After he had finished his statement, he folded his hands and looked inquiringly inquir-ingly at the commissioners. Mr.Eock-efeller Mr.Eock-efeller appeared to have aged considerably consid-erably since he last gave testimony in public. He spoke very slowly and calm I v. lie 'said his sole motive was to devote a portion of his fortune to the service of his fellow men, and that lie regarded the right to rescind the charters of the foundations as sufficient guarantee against abuse of the fund?. lie told about his meeting with J. P. Wei born, president of the Colorado Colo-rado Fuel & lrnn company, and W. L,. Mackenzie King at a time when there was labor trouble in Colorado. He answered all questions that had been asked him. Right to Organize. He told how he directed his business enterprises en-terprises and the part he played in the administration of ttie foundations. He said he would accord all men the right to organize, working men and business men as well, providing they kept within the proper limitations in respect to the law and to safeguarding the general interests of the public. Mr. Rockefeller sal'd he would "be happy to surrender" his holdings, either In whole or in part, and let the workers have a voice jn the board of directors jupt as all other stockholders do, thus giving them i some of the profits of their labor. He would be very happy, also, he said, to see the workers be his partners in business. busi-ness. As for the 100,000,000 he had given to the Rockefeller foundation reverting to himself or his heirs in the event of the legislature rescinding the charter of the foundation. Mr. Rockefeller said, "he had ! never allowed himself to worry about j that." He declared that he had a great j deal of confidence in the American peo- j pie and their goodness. Integrity and common sense, said he. were sufficient security for the foundation. Mr. Rockefeller Rocke-feller had never considered the grievances submitted to the Colorado Fuel & Iron company by its employees. He pointed out that he was a retired business man and had been such for many years. The commission will conclude tomorrow tomor-row Its hearings in this city, which have been in progress for three weeks. Carnegie's Statement. After Mr. Carnegie had settled himself in the witness chair and prepared to read his statement, which he had prepared in advance, he was asked what his business was. "My business," he replied, "is to do all the good in the world that I can." His statement was. in part, as follows: "I never bought or sold shares on the exchange; all my earnings were from manufacturing. If it were necessarv for ! me to return to that calling I should not i consider the problem of labor as at all difficult. On the contrary, I enjoyed con-i con-i ierenees with our men. We had one rule, ! come what may: We would never think ' of running our works with new men. j "Able, sober. well-behaved workmen ! such as ours ore not to he picked up on the street!) and we wished no others. We were very particular in regard to drinking: drink-ing: First offense, men were excluded thirty days: second offense, eixty days; third offense, we parted company." Refers to Homestead. Mr. Carnegie said he "had had only one serious disaster with labor." This was at the time of the riot at Homestead, Pa. Mr. Carnegie was abroad at the time and when he heard of it he 1 wanted to return home, but his partners 1 requested him not to do so. "Some of the men at the works." Mr. ; Carnegie, said, "cabled me 'Kind master, tell us what you want us to do and we will do it for you.' " Wages were advanced ad-vanced 30 per cent, Mr. Carnegie said, after that incident. Labor and capital, he waid, "will some day rank as one." Only once. Mr. Carnegie said, l ad he experience with a dett-rminfd effort to commit wrong on the pari of labor. This was when men at the Edtrnr Thompson bUst furnaces Pent in a writlen demand for an Immediate advance in wais with tli alternative of leaving ibMr furnace unworked. Mr. Carnr-gie Pald ho talked with the leaders of the men. nil of whom admitted that, they had contracted to work at certain wages. "You ha ve signed that treat v." Mr Carnegie, said he told thrm, "ard you ran break it. but the gia wH prow over these works before we will have mi-h men in our employ. It win he heralded through the world as a disgrace, to labor. ou have your answer: go. "There wai no strike. Thai was the bf-st service I ever rendered to American la bor. Borrowed His Capital. "We began manufacturing with a capital cap-ital of $7600; my share I borrowed from a bank in Pittsburg," said the witness describing hin tart a" an iron master. Mr. Carnegie referred to an article whirh he published in ls. in which he expressed ex-pressed tiie opinion that the man who die thus, rl-h, dies dingrad." In this article Mr. Carngi tvrnt that th day was not far distant when the man who died leaving behind him mil-lions mil-lions of a valla ble wealt h. whi-h wre i free for him to administer during lift, I would pas? away "unwept, on honored I ! and unsung," no matter to what una he j might leave hlf fortune. Hinrn the Carnegie penon f,nrj was ! ; founder by himfieif and the United States I ' Steel corporation, retired mployeon of1 the corporation have reivM In pension pen-sion $l.p7."..02l, Mr. ra rnegi testified. Iast. yea r the total disbursement!! from the fund amounted to $511,967. There were 221 beneficiaries. "The hero fund which I was privileged tn found." Mr. Carnegie rontinued, "has always interested me most deeply, perhaps per-haps heeause the idea came to me through personal experience. I could not rest until 1 had founded hero funds with a capital of $11.790.0ti. The report of the annual meeting held nt Pittsburg on January 2') shows awards pivpn to forty li crocs or their wivey a nd fa mi lies, with a total of 127 awards since the fund begun be-gun operations. Pittsburg Institute. "The Carnegie Institute of Pittsburg, one of the greatest gifts I have made, has not been mentioned. It has cost so far 524. (KM, ono and has more than BOOO students from forty-two states. lliSS of whom are men from the industries trying try-ing to improve their conditions." Another department, which Mr. Carnegie Car-negie said he mentioned reluctantly, and because consideration had led him to believe be-lieve it would be better to make no exceptions ex-ceptions whatever, was described as follows: fol-lows: "After retiring from business I soon found out that the widows of friends who passed away were sorely troubled how best to secure the safety of funds left to them. I volunteered to accept the money of one wddow. giving her my note for the amount and agreeing to pay 6 per cent a year. The relief siie felt was so surprising that T continued doing thin as other dar friends passed away, until the number of depositors has now reached 14S. with a total of $3,137,394 in deposits. I do not know of any service to widows which bringH such relief. Of course," the deposits and securities are regularly examined ex-amined by a representative of the state department of banking. Six per cent Is a higher rate than banks would pay. but I feel quite Justified in being liberal. Hundreds of Pensioners. "I confess to being greatly surprised to learn within the last few days that I hove no less than 4.S1 pensioners on ; my list, receiving a total of $214,954 a 1 year. These pensions are continued to the widows. This fund also lias been kent secret hitherto, but your call for a I statement of all foundations seems to embrace em-brace this. I "The complete statement up the close, j of last year shows that the total of ; our foundations and gifts amounts to 324,657,399. "We have six foundations, but T understand under-stand that three only of these have been called upon to answer questions. If at any time you wish to call the heads of the other foundations or to ask further questions, they will be most happy to respond. We have nothing to conceal." Mr. Carnegie said that he did not believe be-lieve the large philanthropic foundations constituted a menace of any kind. "The class of men that you get to work for nothing as directors and trustees proves that, there is no danger," he asserted. as-serted. As regards educational institutions dropping their religious denominational-ism denominational-ism In order that they might obtain endowments. en-dowments. Mr. Carnegie said he believed such a tiling had been done some years j ago, but that lie had heard of nothing of the kind in recent years. I "My money," Mr. Carnegie said, "la for all tiie young men and young women of the L'nited States, and I do not intend that someone shall be excluded from a benefit simply because of religious belief. As fur the hereafter, I helJeve tliat Is a thing we can let take care of itself, provided pro-vided we do the right tiling In this world." In repl3' to a question regarding government gov-ernment representation on the boards controlling the foundation, Mr. Ca rnegle said that aa far as he was concerned he would welcome such representation, but that he saw no need of any such thing. He said he was a firm believer in publicity and that 'he favored foundations founda-tions making public reports. Then he told a story about a man who, when asked "Why la so and so a beggar?" replied, "Because he did not adveriipe." The audience shouted with laughter again. The witness gave it aH his opinion that there was no wrong in the oirec-torates oirec-torates of philanthropic foundations Interlocking. When informed that he was permanently perma-nently excused, with the thank? of the commission for appearing, Mr. Carnegie said: "I thank you. gentlemen, too. And I want to assure you that 1 have not f-pent such a pleasant afternoon in many ea:s.'' Rockefeller's Statement. ' When Mr. Carnegie left the stand John P. Rockefeller, Sr.. demanded that he be heard a a witness. Mr. Rockefeller took thp stand and began readlin' a statement. "The sole motive underling the various vari-ous foundations which I lw w established has been the desire to devote a portion of my fortune to the services or my fellow fel-low man." he read. "The priic lples have been fully set fortli in two chupterp from my hook. 'Random F.enilniS'.eiises," which 'nave already been m.tde a pjit of lh reoi d of jour ronimitcc." Mr. Rockefeller's stftt'rnent appeared in question and answer form. Answering a question as to hip purpose and plans with respect to the, epend;ture , of 2.i.'i'0,00" annually reserved for his personal per-sonal use by the Roc ke feller foundation, Lite Witness re,id as follows; "The Rockefeller foundation wan a development de-velopment into personal form of my own personal plans of giving, followed for many years. While o-Mie to hae the directors nf te foundnhnn tin the funds as they nilglu ttee tit, in makine on last gift I reserved the riRh' to d'-signafn during dur-ing my lifetime, the speHtlc objects to Which ?2. ", '0f of the m- tune )?hoiiM be given annual!'-, my purpose being m this way to provide for the various philanthropies philan-thropies more or hH person-il to myself and feinted to the places of ntv residence, to which I have been a cont ributor In the p;isl. "Cnder the terms of the clause nf my letter of g:ft reserving this right. t ts stipulated that the ob.lerts rnuMj he within with-in the corporate pur pop of th foundation, founda-tion, and niv designs 1 :ons are Huhieet. to review by the bo.itd n in that fent ir." Assisted to Platform. Mr. Rockefeller rys Assisted to the pia t frm and into I he u )t nee cha ir before be-fore bei rming hi testimony. His voice wan clear and dmtlnci. "I regard the right to anind or rescind the respective, charter s ( of j the several foundations, which Inheres In Die lfVtH-lative lfVtH-lative bodies which grn nted them a.' an entirely unfficient gnarnntee Hgalnst serious abuse, of Ihn funds," hn Siiid. "Kurt her more, 1 have such confide nee In democracy that I believe it can belter bft left t.o the people and their reprenenfa.- ! rjve to remedy evils when there n some! ta n glide ren fon for believing they n re Impending rat her t ban to rent i let the pou fr for service In a n ticijut t ion of purely hypot hel leal ib' ngcr." ! Mr. Rockefeller wa h aked nbmit bin meeting at bN home In Tarrvtown wltri Mr. Welborn of the Colorado Kite) - iron company, W. I,. Mji'-kenle King mid other, at which the ijff.i.lra of tho company com-pany were dlweiisswi. "The meeting at Tarrylowii therein referred re-ferred to WD purely ocn in character," he f-.fild. Am for ed'icntlonnl I list i I il Hot in iiltTlng their policies or form In order to xni d0- tuitions from Die general rdwdtlnn hofird, Mr. Hock'Teller mid he hnd "nvnr heap! of miylhnig of Unit kind." to our 'ijriibition," he rntd, " do not think such l hi nu'n hn ve ever h;i p-pened. p-pened. A3 to otlieri'. I do not know." Question of Responsibility. Ret;,i riling the re'-'ponnl hi 1 1 1 y of sl'n-k-holdeiH and directum for In bor condition, ho Hiiid; "I think the ) nek hnlderfl rife rc:ipnn-nlhle rc:ipnn-nlhle for the ciioke. of the b.-Mf men ns d Irect ors. The d I rect or a re nl 1 1 rnn t e v rcHpotinlljle for the general conduct, of thr bu nl nrr-ti, n nd tn dim I in rgl n k t hn t ric:poii -nihility It i 1 1 1 I r 'lulv to scfect the l-; men to ncio.illv ;ol nil rdU w It. Their ;ol-n ;ol-n 1 1 1 1 1 Ht I'm live officers miint Juive rl i uc rel Ion n nil po we r com m- n-1 1 it I e with ( h 1 r in- pom:lliflM v A Inn: nel-holder ordl- ini rll v woo hi h;n r. oion hi rhi"n w. wll h :i honrd of rMn--!oi' Hum n nrimllcr one nt.d. con-iroiieiitly. would h;ie i, i-r,..-i t re motlMibillt v for the lr.on nf ililc.-toiH Who would f:-c lo t that Mir. ,r ml nl;:1 rn -t.I V office) H MWI 1 11 11 1 1 1 ci I proper Wo I h pig condition for Ih.-lr emplo vcen. 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