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Show I ROOSEVELT GIVES AN INTERVIEW " His New Platform the Result of a Life-long Growth and of a Life-long H Battle With Corruption in Politics "Jack Hazard, or Winning His H Way" No Longer His Ideal of a Career "One Great Human Element H Lacking," He Says "What Jack Hazard Did to the Other Fellow Who M Hadn't Made a Million." (An interview with Theodore Hooscvelt, by Will Irwin.) H (If r had spaco, I o'nould break up this Interview to tell you something H of Theodore Roocevelt as he appears today In the mld6t of his greatest campaign; for, notwithstanding that he has been more described and H pictured than any other living man, his personality has so many facets that H ho appoars In a now light to the eye of each beholder. I Interviewed him Hl on a Now York Central train ac he started on his swing through the Nrth- Hl west. I wlah thct I might put In the lights and ahadec. I should tell H how, in the midst of a discussion on the cost of living, he loaped across H the car at the sight of the fleet lying In the Hudson and described, with 1 the technical delight of a workman and the enthusiasm of a boy, the gun H arrangement on the old Connecticut. Again, I might describe to you B how he dropped the Trust quentlon to glow over the Japanese-print ap- H pearance of tho oun as It dropped through the slate-colorod mists above Hl the Hudson. But, after all, you are more Interested, I think, In what H Roosevelt has to say than In any man's impression of him. Hl It grew out of a question. I had asked him how ho, a member of H the Fifth avenue set In New York, born and reared within the Chincee H wall of class feollrrg, had come at laBt to be the leader of a movement H ivhlch Is for every man and woman, without consideration of class and H wealth. And all I have set (down her e has to do with answering that ques- H "We have all changed our old H tIcwg. That is what tbe Progrcs- H slve movement means. The two gcu- H eratlons thought differently. Pro- H gresBlvisin is the thought of a now H generation. Hardly one of us Pro- H grecsives but is In a sense a con- H vert we all did conscientiously, in H those days, something: or other which H 6 would shudder to contemplate H "Wo were brought up. in my child- H hood, on tho idea of success. Do you H remember 'Our Young Folks'' It wan H the great children's periodical of that H time, and I think yet that it was the Hl greatest thing of Its kind ever pub- H lished. Well, the serials wo read' H there were things like Mack Hazard' H or 'Winning His Way' about poor H canal-boat boys and farm lads who H worked their way up and made a M million dollars. Tho worship of suc- H cess it was made into an ideal and a lUlB vlrtUA. ThorA -rnn rrno rrrpfit human M element lacking-, though wo didn't see H that What Jack Hazard did In the H process to the other fellow who hadn't H made a million, No, sir; no one H thought of him. Ho wasn't on the M "Then I went to college and came M back with my ready-made sot of M Fifth avenue and university ideas. Bc- M ing good was a matter of philan- M thropy giving some of your Income fl to relieve distress. Economics was a H matter of statistics. Particularly, T H held to tbe laissez faire doctrine of H political economy that government H should keep hands off everything. I M couldn't sec in those days beyond M Adam Smith. H "When I first thought about public M life, I saw two political organizations M hard and fast In the hands of a gang H You know the old system. When I M told my regular associates that I was H soiug to join my district olub, they M objected mildly not because I was H going to mix with a corrupt gang, but H because I was going out of my own H crowd. As a matter of fact, when I H joined my district club, when I went H into the National Guard, I had no H more definite idea of real public ser- H vice than when I v.-ent West ranching. H I was doing it because I liked it, and M because I wantod to save my b elf from M being a mollycoddle. H "I was still looking at everything Hj from the 'Jack Hazard' and laissez H "faire point of view. I remember with Hl how much courage, and how little common 6ense, I fought in the state Hl legislature against the reform of the Hi convict contract labor system. I hon- H estly thought I was right. It was Hl better that the convicts should bo B kept busy, and the contractors, I felt. H would trent them right When thp H labor leaders came to me and present- Hl ed their side, I couldnlt see it at alL 1 "But I got my first lesson there. H ,1 saw first-hand tbe general cormp- H tlon In a state legislature under the Hl old syGtom. That was before the H Bobs reached his highest power; H each member of the corrupt element 1 was getting his own bit for himself. H Money waB being passed on all sides B of me. I couldn't exactly provo it in 1 court, but privately I knew 1L I saw H a bill affecting a corporation held up H because tho corporation wasn't com- H ing through strongly enough. I saw H their lobbyist arrive from New York j with the sack after which tho hill B went through. Ob, yet, I found out something about the under side of eovernment in that session! And I H began to think that if wo could only H set rid of what wo called the corrupt H element in politics, if we could get H the business people Interested and H &av a business administration of af- H falra, everything would bo right H They put mo on the commission H to Investigate tenement bouse tobacco M aaanmacture and that was tho next B flep suppose. Wo had connected H "with that work a man tied up to one ' of the oM crowds a hoolor, a regu- m Jar wara politician, but sometimes H right in his heart, as such a man is M likely to be. Ho said to mo, 'Thooe m conditions are awful, but I can't touch U them; Vm all tied up. Now, you're H free. You go ahead and show them 1 up. Well, he wao right Conditions B were awfuL The people lived and worked four deep In Uttio tenement rooms starved, diseaaed and worn out with long hours and low pav. I H went to the bottom of the thlng.'as t thought thon. I found that some of the most eminently respcctablo people H In New York owned those tenements H And all that I learned In the investl- m . Ration and In the fight to pass a de- j cent law koncked my laissez faire M theorios Into a cocked hat. How- H over you might work it out in theory, H It was a failure In practice. Could 1 tboso poor fellows got out and do H eomothlng else7 Practically, no. Tho H frontier was gone, and in the condl- M Iwn to which they wore reduced tuoy H -wcreu't the kind of people to go H pioneering I think I got here mv H first glimmering idea of real aoc'al H service. 1 wanted to do something H for people like that Mrnethlng for H -Thnt'o the set of ideas which I H brought with me into the civil aerv- H lco commisaion and tho police com- H mlslon. And by that time I was on 7 f '. lgf!U'.AWWWtAM . tho road to a real understanding of I social service; It was Jacob RIIh who sot me on the right track I had read his stories about real conditions in Nov York; and I said to him, 'Let's get in and work together Let's do eomothlng to make this real.' "It was fight, fight all tho time, that police commission Job But, after all I was fighting only the professional grafters bloated, fat thieves who got th-eir money as they could, and spent It in champagne baths and debauches up tho Hudson such as Tweed used o hold. I didn't have much support whenever I struck out to do something, new On the one side wore those fellows, fel-lows, and on the other a lot of sappy Idealists who couldn't bo got to understand. un-derstand. I didn't understand much myself; I went on thinking that the grafting professional politician was the roal menace of democracy, and that If we got a business administration administra-tion everything would bo right. Still, tho other thing was in the back of my head all tho time. You see. T had come out of college with the educated head, but I hadn't even yet the educated edu-cated heart. "After that I went down to Washington Wash-ington I was busy reorganizing the navy, which was a business job and didn't bring me up against the real question. Then It was the war and the Rough Riders. There was a lot of the Jack Hazard stuff still in me I see that now. I remember that when I was first in Washington I used to tell my New York acquaintances with great enthusiasm about " (here he mentioned the name of a rich and self made piratical politician of the old Bcnoolj "and Bob La Follelto, in the same breath. I praised them both equally as fine, virile western men who had come up from tho ranks by their own efforts. That'B the Bubtlo point I wonder if you see it? Thoy looked allko to me. 1 couldn't draw any distinction yet "I became governor of New York. That was whoro I bogan to see light I ran against what wo used to call tho money power. You know, I'd heard that phrase all my life, and laughed at It When Bryan used It I thought of It as the vaporing of a windy demagogue. dem-agogue. Take tho Lou Payu incident I can't remember whether that or tho franchlae tax bill was fim in order or-der I was fighting Payn'c appointment appoint-ment as insuranco commissioner. It was a question If I conld got any other oth-er appointmont through the legislature. legisla-ture. A respectable young gentleman came up from New York, representing one of the insurance companies. Ho said 'Wo'd support some other man If we were sure you could put him through, but we're afraid of opposing Payn for fear he may take it out on us in ce.30 he wins,' I said, 'Legislature 'Legisla-ture or no legislature, I'll stick It out If they don't confirm my man, then I'll try another and it won't bo Payn.' He said, 'In that case, we'll support your appointeo. Wo can deliver four senators and three assemblymen.' The next day tho president of that company com-pany gave out a statement Indorsing Payn. I sent down to find what it meant He said, 'Oh. that's all right; we're only guarding ourselves In case Payn should go in. We'll deliver our senators and ae-semblymen just the samo.' Do you get it? Four senators and three aGsomblymen not bought casually as they used to buy men In the legislature during my time, but the servants of the corporation. "But that was a tea party compared to the franchise tax bill. At every Btroko I cut Into some" Interest I saw their power; I began to see how they worked. After It was all over and I'd jammed the bill through Tom Piatt wroto me a letter " Hore Roo3evelt hesitated. "I've never given thnt out for publication," pub-lication," he said finally. "But It's long past now. Tom Piatt said, 'I've been hearing for a long timo thnt j-ou wore an altruist Now I am reluctantly forced to admit that it Isn't true.' He waen't trying to be humorous, either, 'Altruist" with him waa tho same as anarchist or communist. "As I look back at It now I must have gono pretty far, uuconsclouslv, before I went down to Washington as vice president and president. Protty far for those times, I mean- I wasn't so far from the right idea, after all. Look up my letter of acceptance and notice that I was after the trusts oven thou. My growth is all in my successive succes-sive messages. I was looking them over tho other day and realizing how I went on from point to point in Boven years "When I started to clean up the postoffice department, for example I found that every time T cut Into aiiv-thius aiiv-thius I Btruck a big interest doing something crooked and unfair. Then thero was the matter of Judges. I appointed ap-pointed them just as Cleveland and McKln ey had dono. Cleveland and McKinley nad no idea of corruption of courde. They only saw conscientiously consci-entiously that men were appointed who wouldn't disturb the conservative and orderly courco of business, i ur-ed to follow something the samo system. I picked my judgos on the iccommendation of bar "associations and chambers of commerce, and all that. Then wo broke into that land L rr Mrrrrr- giaft situation in tho we3l. Frank Henoy took off hiG coat and went to work. And I found out about some of thoHo judges and I'd appointed part of them myself found what considerations con-siderations govoruod their decisions." Here Roosevelt whirled in hiH chair, clicked hi3 teeth nnd let Into his voice that strident note which comes when he is dead In earnest "Why," ho said, "I got my first taste of that long ago. whon I was trying to regulate that tenement houso tobacco business in tho stale legislature. The higher courts declared de-clared our bill unconstitutional because be-cause It violated the sanctity of the home. There they were two families and a lodger living and working in one dark, fifteen-foot room, men and women .crowded togother, leaf tobacco tobac-co packed under the beds where their children slept, no sanitary arrangements, arrange-ments, filth heaped in tho corners, disease, files and misery everywhere I but we mustn't do anything to ameliorate their condition couldn't do anything for fear of violating the sanctity of homes like these! As I went on I ab3orbad the other articles of tho Progressive platform, took up j with some other fellow's idea in which, perhaps, I hadn't seen much at first Tho initiative and referendum, tho popular election of senators, aud i woman suffrage, for example. L'n- derstand, I was always in favor of I woman suffrage as a matter of ulti- i mate social Justice but I didn't regard It as Important It wao such women j as Francos Kellor and Jane Addntns j i who showed me that workinc girls need it for their own protection The ! review of judicial decisions came in I a different way When we mot that I land situation, I said that wc should havo some tuothod of criticizing our judges. Then I went tho whole route, and the review of Judicial decisions was contribution to the Progressive program." "And free competition versus monopoly?" mo-nopoly?" It wan here that Roosevelt abandoned aban-doned the history of his own intellectual intel-lectual development to got . at tho subject which ho had been burning to approach all the afternoon the issues of the campaign. "Understand," he said, "I'm not for monopoly when wo can help it We Intend to restoro competition; we intend in-tend to do away with the conditions that make for monopoly. But thero are certain nonopolles which you , can't prevent. I understand tho sfpoi trust is not an absolute monopoly But if It were, what wo-Ud be the uec of splitting up the Stcol trust Into three companies, controlled bv Morgan, Mor-gan, Carnegio nnd Rockefeller, sav? Would It ameliorate conditions at ail? Would It mako the prices lower to the consumer, tho wages and conditions higher for the worker? Don't you suppose those three fellows would agree on prices and methods unofficially? unoffi-cially? Here's ono of your examples of free competition. I saw a whilo ago the plant of a competitor of tho Steel trust. The wages were lov-er than thoso of the trust, the hours wore longer, the conditions in every way worse it Is one of the concerns upon which The Survov came down the hardest How would it holp if wo should restore such comnetition as that? Tho Standard Oil eompnnv has been officially broken up. The result Is higher prices for the public and lust ns big dividends for the stockholders unionism barred no advance for tho workers. "The truth is. In this discussion thev're losing sight of the main thing men and women. We're for men. Free competition and monopoly they're all the same thing unless you Improve the condition of the workers. "My plan was pretty well laid out before I loft the White House. Put them under a strong federal commission. commis-sion. Make them open up thoir books. Whore we find violations of tho spirit spir-it or the letter of the law, apply such POToaaaaiaiauimWii i rnm-jm jn , t laws n.3 wo hae and whero we hae none, mako others to meet the conditions. con-ditions. In case of persistent violations viola-tions of laws to protect the workers anil the conaumors, appoint a receiver. Whv not? There's nothing revolutionary revolu-tionary in it Tho Interstate commerce com-merce commission has alraont as much power, and wo go oxactly a3 far in the banking department Run them as we do tho banks. Demand (the right to know what they're doing; II they're doinp wrong, hit them; if thev continue to do wrong, clap a receivership re-ceivership on them, keep It on until they're straightened out. and restoro them " here Roosevelt's voice took on tho strident note "rontoro them to a chastened ownership fine, grow-iutr grow-iutr concerns, but going In the right direction. "Do you know one of the impressions impres-sions I got in those yoars of fighting in the White House' It was a contempt con-tempt for the merely rich man. Not contempt for wealth, but for the alms and uses of wealth as things havo gone in our worst period. The tro-mendous, tro-mendous, corrupting use of wealth in our affairs that was the thing which struck mo most What patriotism, what oplritual end, is thero in moot merely rich men? In case of war, do vou suppose thoy would send their sons'' Do they fool any obligation except ex-cept to their own fortunes? If thev do Doraethlng with it that's differont When r hoard of George Perkins, making millions in Wall street helping help-ing control tho financial situation, he meant nothing to me. When I found ho was anxious to do such work as, for instance, getting Palisade park over thero tor tho people, then I be-oamo be-oamo interested in him. "And that," concluded Roosevelt, as his secretary laid down before him that sheaf of telegrams which pour In night and day upon a national candidate, can-didate, "is what we're after. Break tho shameful nbuoes of wealth. Restoro Re-storo his reward to the man who did tho work. Back of all this talk about monorjoly aud competition is the question, 'What aro you going to do for women and men?'" |