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Show niflGAL TELLS OF EXPERIENCES AS A QYffiim; -"--- -- -r- 4.4. "" - LOS ANGELES. Cal., Dec. S. Tho scope of tho lnvestlga- -f -- tlon undertaken by tho federal grand Jury here aud the one In Indianapolis, Ind., so far as f- could bo learned tonight, had -t- f not been sharply defined. Gov- 4- f ernment officials. It Is thought, -f f 'will bo able to determine only after the tefltlmony of wit- -f- f nesses has proceeded further, -f -f whether to return Indictments f here or In Indiana against f- those persons alleged to have been Implicated In a consplr- acy unlawfully to transport -f - explosives from one staio to -f another. Both Jamea B. and John J. McNa-mara McNa-mara remained In their cells today, reiterating that they would toll nothing noth-ing even If called before tho grand jury. Oscar Lawler, the government's special prosecutor, saw them, but obtained ob-tained little satisfaction. Whether they actually would appear or not was tonight a doubtful question. It was suggested that perhaps after the McXamaras had a tasto of prlECn life and were visited by labor leaders, who are anxious to cleanse organized labor of alleged charges of lawlessness, lawless-ness, and who might persuade them to aid the ends of Justice, they might bo prevailed iSpon to give tho desired Information. McManlgal Before Grand Jury. Ortlo E. McManlgal, confessed dynamiter, dy-namiter, continued to tell the grand Jury his experiences as a dynamiter, and he was. followed by William KI-zcr KI-zcr of Munclo, Ind , a nltro-glycer-Ine manufacturer, who says he sold explosives to J. B. and John J Mc-Namara Mc-Namara as well aa to Ortlo E. McManlgal. McMan-lgal. The latter corroborates Klzer's story. Though knowledge of the proceedings pro-ceedings before the grand Jury Is kept Becret, It Ib assumed that Klicr. who Identified J. B. McNamara In the courtroom recently, told of the people peo-ple to whom ho sold explosives Earlier Ear-lier In the day John Crulkshank, a railroad man, testified. Though It Is Inilleved that the government gov-ernment has not reached a definite decision as to the course which the Investigation here and its parallel In Indianapolis will take. It Is a fact that most of the evidence In the alleged conspiracy Is In the office of District Attorney John D. Fredericks of Loc Angeles' county. Numerous witnesses now here are expected to testify to Important points in the chain of circumstances cir-cumstances showing that J. B McNamara McNa-mara and Ortle E. McManlgal brought explosives to California. Unlawful Transportation of Explosives. Ex-plosives. Tho federal penal code provides that whoever shall violate or cause to be Violated sections relating to the unlawful un-lawful transportation of nltro-glycer-lne or other high explosives on an interstate carrier. Is liable to a flno of not more than 42,000 or Imprisonment Imprison-ment for IS months, or both. Conspiracy Con-spiracy to violate federal laws Is punishable pun-ishable by a fine of not less than 510,-000 510,-000 or Imprisonment of not more than two years, or both. These two charges are considered to bo the pos- 'Bible ones for Indictment both here and at Indianapolis. Whother Indianapolis or Los An-geleB An-geleB will bo made the center of tho government's .probe. It Is said, has not yet been decided It in believed that people who conspired to have J. B. McNamara transport explosives leading lead-ing to the Los Angeles Times ox-plosion ox-plosion and people who directed McManlgal Mc-Manlgal to carry bombs here to destroy de-stroy the Llewellyn Iron Works will be Investigated here, while Indianapolis Indianap-olis authorities will be concerned with tho quiz Into tho allesed conspiracy con-spiracy to transport dynamite to other oth-er statoa whero explosions are reported re-ported to havo occurred In the last threo years. Government Has Evidence. The state practically has turned over to the federal authorities all the Information In its possession, Including Includ-ing all that It knows of J. B. McNa-mara'a McNa-mara'a alleged connection with explosions ex-plosions in Oakland, Cal., and Seattle Seat-tle By tracing the signature of J. B. Bryce, admittedly the fictitious name of McNamara, on hotel rogistors, at other points simultaneously with the occurrence of other dynamite explosions, ex-plosions, It is believed that an attempt will be made to show that labor loaders load-ers on the coast with whom J B. associated were Involved in tho conspiracy con-spiracy to transport explosives un lawfully In connection with tho possible returning re-turning of Indictments hero or at Indianapolis In-dianapolis on tho conspiracy charges. it Is pointed out that rules of law have made it possible to Indict persons per-sons who formed a conspiracy either at the point of origin or at tho place whero the conspiracy was consummated. consum-mated. It is admitted that the government gov-ernment can consolidate either at Lo3 Anpoles or at Indianapolis, but it is predicted that a division of the task will ensue, and the investigation hero will be directed toward coast labor leaders and the probe In Indianapolis toward eastern officials. The e-ridonce gathered by District Attorney Fredericks to show that the Times building was destroyed feloniously felon-iously amounts almost to a mathematical mathemat-ical demonstration. A model of the Times building with four Glass floors on which the surface plan of rooma and interior walls Is outlined, contains con-tains on each floor small wood markers mark-ers with numbers thereon. Indicating Indicat-ing where 107 persons stood in tho building at the moment of tho explosion explos-ion nnd 86 of theao represent witnesses, wit-nesses, from whom the stAte gathered gather-ed signed statements as to tho direction direc-tion of the flames and debris. The placing of the bomb and consequent conse-quent effects is portrayed by photographs photo-graphs made in a test explosion conducted con-ducted by the state recently Deputy Depu-ty District Attorneys George Veltch and J. A. Hill, caused to be built a small atone structure, modelled closely close-ly after the Times building. By mathematical math-ematical calculation on reduced quantities quan-tities of explosive, with due consideration consid-eration to resistance and other factors, fac-tors, an explosion was accomplished, which, when photographed, resembled almost Identically photographs of tho ruins of the Times building. This was the kind of evidence the state Intended to bring to court, but the federal authorities now will havo the benefit of the mapB, drawings, models and exhibits as an evidence of the object of the alleged conspiracy. Mrs. Lena Ingcrsoll of San Francisco, Fran-cisco, keeper or the lodging house where J- B. McNamara lived In that city, arrived here today and will testify tes-tify before the grand Jury. It Is believed be-lieved she will be asked to tell what persons were associated with J. B. McNamara before he left for Los Angeles. The bank accounts of Clarence S. Darrow and Lecompte Davis, attorneys attor-neys for the McNaraaras. have been attached by Dr. J. H Bullard. The latter is the assignee of J. H Levering, Lev-ering, who claims that 5750 is due him for making plans, models and blue prints of tho Times building to support the gas theory of the defense. A week ago an attachment waa issued against the 510,000 ball money furnished fur-nished by the McNamara defense for Bert H. Franklin, arrested on a bribery brib-ery charge, and against the S4.000 said to have been acquired by the stato when it arrested Franklin. The attempt to attach these two sums was unsuccessful, and the next atop taken tak-en was agalnet the bank accounts of the attorneys today. INDIANAPOLIS. Ind., Dec S. J. A. G Badorf, of tho National Erectors association, declared tonight that Frank P. Baker, prosecutor for Marlon Mar-lon county, has not been "playing square," and charges that he violated his sworn duty when he made public the confession of Ortle E. McManlgal. Badorf assorts that there are only two copies, the one he possesses and the one he furnished Baker. Badorf also declares he has no doubt that Baker showed the confession to Samuel Sam-uel Gompers of the American Federation Federa-tion of Labor, when he was In Washington Wash-ington several weeks ago. Baker denied tonight that he has broken faith by. giving out the confession, confes-sion, although he admitted he had verified an alleged original confession by comparing it with the one In his possession. Badorf says no harm can result from Baker's action now the McNa-maras McNa-maras have admitted their gullL It appears to him that some one might be held In contempt of court. WASHINGTON, Dec. 8. Charles W. Miller, United States district attorney at-torney at Indianapolis, discussed to-dav to-dav the alleged extensive dynamiting conspiracy now being investigated by the federal grand Jury at Indianapolis Indianap-olis with Assistant Attorney General Harr. Department officials declined to dlvulse the details of the conference. confer-ence. Mr. Miller returned to Indianapolis Indian-apolis this afternoon. The conference accentuates the fact that the office of tho attorney general is directly conducting the federal fed-eral Investigations at both Indianapolis Indianap-olis and Lob Angeles. Mr. Wlcker-shnra Wlcker-shnra had assumed personal chargo of the Inquiry until ho won taken ill a fow days ago and since that time ho hae committed tho entire matter to Assistant Attorney General Harr, who has been identified with the Investigation Investi-gation since Ub inception. oo |