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Show HON. THOMAS FITCH INTKR-V INTKR-V IK WED. What ha ! AlleRed to have Said to a New York "Herald" Reporter. The Hon. Thomas Fitch, leading cnuosellor and attorney for Brit-ham Young, stopped at the St. Nicholas hotel on Tuesday night, and left on Wednesday to keep a lecture engagement engage-ment at Bennington, Vermont. A3 Mr, Fitch ia directly from Salt Lakecity.and acquainted more directly with the Mormon situation in its legal aspects than probably any person in the country, a Herald reporter was sent to sound him on the crisis. lie occupied a cosy chamber with his wife, a lady of fine literary culture and spirituelle luce. Bishop Sharp, Hon. V. H. Hooper and one or two Gentiles Gen-tiles on good terms with the Mormons had left their cards upon the table. Mr. Fitch is a heavy-set, Italian-looking Italian-looking young man, with fine chestnut brown eyes, a brown aud red complexion complex-ion and a black mustache. lie was ; yery free and natural in his manner, 1 but avoided close inquiries as to the habits and character of the federal officials in Utah. "Mr. Fitch," said the Jlerald representative, rep-resentative, ''arc you the sole counsel for Brigham Young f' ' No, t-ir, my firm (Filch k Mann) probably lead in his business at Salt Jjike. Besides, he retains Hempstead and Kirpatrick, Snow and Hogc, Miner and Stout and LeGrand Young. Our attorney at Washington city is Cyrus J. Ilillyer, of Nevada, All tho above are Gentiles esceptSoow.Young, Mioer and Stout." "Was it by your advice that Brig-bam Brig-bam Young suddenly left Salt Lake tor southern Utah." "Not especially. I think it was prudent, however, under the circumstances. circum-stances. Brigham Young makes a sort of tour of the churches and settlements every year as far as St. George, on the border of Arizona. He . had started when he ascertained that I the grand jury had indicted him for lewd and lascivious conduct and cobab- itatioti, but he immediately returned, j waited quietly to be arrested, and on his following arrest he gave bail in the sum of $5,000, Then hearing that other indictments on old and trumped-up trumped-up charges of murder were being prepared pre-pared he waited three weeks to see them produced. He finally Bent for United States marshal Patrick and asked him if had any such indictments, Patrick replied that ho had not. Mr. Young then said be was prepared for the annual trip, and as the court had indicated to bis counsel a postponement postpone-ment of the trial on the existing indictment in-dictment until late iu the winter, he thought of making no further delay. He departed in his carriage in broad daylight, i saw him go myself. After he had gone a day or more, judge t McLvcan took out of his pooket an 1 indictment that had lain there in se-! se-! crecy for a month and issued a warrant j upon it lor his arrest for murder. I 1 fence the hue and cry over the alleged flight. It is ridiculous, aud bus been telegraphed east to injure the old man " "Was it legitimate for judge Mc-Ivean Mc-Ivean to keep an indictment so long concealed?" "No. Utterly unprecedented. The grand jury found the indictment on the 2Slh of September; the warrant was delayed till the 2Sih of October. Such concealment is never used except when the del'endant is supposed to meditate escape, but there was Brigham Young waiting all the time to be arrested." I "Will he probably return mid sub-: sub-: init to arrest and incarceration at Camp Douglas on the unbailable charge of murder?" "He may; but I shouldn't blame him if he refused to walk into this deadfall." "Why do you say deadfall?" "Because, under the jury-packing system now practiced in Utah, and the rulings aud chargings of the court, he has no chance whatever. In fact, he has been found guilty in advance; for when McKcan opened this term of the court he said that the institution and system of the Mormon church were on (rial; and made a harangue against them." "What is the general estimate of McKean among the legal fraternity of Utah?" "lie is a fanatic, without much I knowledge of law, determined to secure se-cure convictions of these people at whatever cost. He believes that the end justifies the means; thinks ho is sustained by the administration; that it is his religious duty to crowd the Mormons hard, and he has also, he supposes, a chance to gain a great political po-litical reputation. lie ii a very determined deter-mined man, however, of considerable personal courage, but not fit to be a judge. He is a preacher and an elocutionist." elocu-tionist." 11 What are said to be his ambitions?" "Political promotion in tho east, either in New York State or at the President's bands." "Are the two other justices more impartial?" "I have not sufficient knowledge on that head to an.swcr intelligently. Strickland acquiescos with McKean uniformly. Hawley differs from McKean Mc-Kean with respect to the Mormons, only that he would reach tho same end less boldly and with more soui-blance soui-blance of regard to legal precedents." "Do these justices show aDy feeling of sensitiveness as to the severe criticisms critic-isms passed upon them by eastern jurists?" jur-ists?" "Well, they think that the American Ameri-can people are indifferent about the means of extirpating Mormonism so it be killed oil'. They do not know 1 enough law to caro ibr professional estimation. I hey arc popularly said to 'jump' mines and precedents with equal facility." "What took you from Nevada to Umh, Mr. Fitch?" "Mining litigation. I moved there May 1; My connection with the Mormon Mor-mon trials probably followed from my position on the Culiom bill in congress last winter, when 1 made the only speech agaiust its passage on the Republican Re-publican side, i opposed it because it took the selection of juries out of the local officers and out of the scope of law of the Territory. It made the United States marshal the despot of Utah, and excluded from the jury box n ine Leon-1 wen tiotlm of the people. And yet-Judge McKean, by his rulings, litis passed the Culiom bill in advance of iu passage by congress, and Mr. Baskin, the author of that bill, is actually ac-tually the United Stales attorney in j Utah, getting convictions under it." "You oO not appear to place faith in the newspaper letters from Utah ?" "No. They are Munchausenisms, which tickle us at home while they probably do hurt at a distance. The federal officials write most of them. Tiiese old murders aro supported by the evidence of the desperado who did them, and that of Yates happened fifteen fif-teen years ago, in the Mormon war, which the administration ol' that time passed over. Is there any reason i clearer than this that the present court has come to make havoc, and will go any lengths to do it ! The very order and prosperity of the Mormons are hateful to them." "Do you have any f-ympathy with polygamy?" . "None. In my speech in the Hawkins Haw-kins case I called it 'a cruel and encompassing en-compassing system of barbarism,' whether endorsed by the old testament or the Mormon revelation. There are allowances for it there, however. When the Mormons went to Utah the women were in excees, and it devolved j upon a man to take care of more than j one to keep the unmarried from starving. starv-ing. It was preached as a religious ordinance to credulous people, and 1 was practised remote from monogamous : mankind. They did not begin it with j criminal intent. Society has caught up j to polygamy, and its hours are numbered; num-bered; but what is the u?o of galloping ; over all law and decency to make mar- tyrs and seed for it ? Why treat it ; with the spirit of proachers and zealots ; instead of as statesman and surgeons ? i Save the life of Utah its frugal and ! temperate labor, its acquisitions and j its uses for all the mines and settle- : ments of the central continent ! Those are my sentiments." ' "What is the value of Utah?" , "Well, its mines are equal in value j to those of Nevada, which have pio j duced from $ 1 10,000,000 to $150,000,-000. $150,000,-000. The real estate, capital, &c, arc i probably not less than $70,000,000. All this is Mormon work. Labor in j the mines costs only two dollars a day, j or halfas much as all around us." j "Do you think an exodus from Utah i was ever contemplated?" "Yes. 1 know it was debated, but Biigham put his foot on it. It is not required. livery interest of Utah b;is been disturbed, however, by the.c crusaders." cru-saders." "What is the solution of the thing?" "Self-government. Admit them as a State, under a constitution enacted by themselves, relinquishing for all the future polygamous marriages. Follow the advice of Hamlet, 'Those that are married already shall stay married.' The mere discussion of this constitution prior to its enactment will shed more light on the error of the thing than all the judicial terrors of our courts, and if the Mormons ever agree to givo up polygamy they will do it without mental reservation and in perfect candor and simplicity." "What will be the political complexion com-plexion of such a new State ?" "Extraordin iry. It is a State without with-out partisanship, and it will vote lor Presidential electors in the spirit of the old electoral provisions that is, looking at the character of the electors elec-tors only; and leaving them instructed instruct-ed as to their preference among candidates. can-didates. You sec all politics has been shut out of Utah. Our newspapers take no sides in it, and the Mormon people are of neither party." "To return to the federal court, Mr. Fitch. Is it impartial among the lawyers?" law-yers?" "That it don't become me to pay. We had a funny thing there about the time I left. Mr. Miner, a Mormon lawyer, moved an arrest of judgment in the Hawkins case, and, among other things, said an officer of the court had plnyed poker with the jury. The judge said this was slanderous, , ..!,. i ;...! r., i: l u be disbarred next day. I believe, however, it was confirmed on inquiry, and the judge, in his best elocution, forgave Miner with censure." "Is tho practice of McKcan's court embarrassing?" "Yes; McKcan is only a sort of missionary mis-sionary exercising judicial functions. We never expected him to be unprejudiced, unpre-judiced, but we supposed he might like to appear consistent. You see, in the first instance, after hearing an argument upon the point at law ho declared that he was a United States court, that the Territorial legislature had no power to prescribe rules for his court as to selecting juries, and that he would not draw juries by open venire but by selection, as in United States court. Wo lawyers put up with this and expected him to hold on consistently con-sistently to it, so that we should prepare pre-pare our cases as lor a United States court." "How did he violate his decision?" "Why, he resolved himself into a United States Court for all purposes prejudicial to Mormon defendants, and whenever the Territorial law was severer on them than the laws of Congress Con-gress he resolved back again into a Territorial Court. For example, the ; United States laws givo the defendant ten jury challenges and the prosecution prosecu-tion only two; while the Territorial i laws allow six and six. The United States statute of limitations disbars all but capital crimes after two yoars of non-proseoution, while tho Territorial Territo-rial law bars nothing. Now, McKean wants a Territorial Court to challenge the jury and prosecute after many years by Territorial permission, but a United States Court to empanel tho jury, etc. He played shuffle with jurisdiction and demonstrated to Mr. Young's counsel and thoso of other indicted polygamists that ho would bo bound by neither law nor consistency, but would do whatever he had the physical power to do to secure a conviction. con-viction. Therefore, I say, as counsel to Brigham Young, that if he does absent himself from such a tribunal until the United States Supreme Court at Washington passes on a test case we have sent there, he will only anticipate lho advico of his counsel." "What is that case?" "Engelbrecht is Clinton and others in all twenty defendants. The prosecutor pro-secutor is a liquor seller who defied the municipal licenso law of Salt Lake, and by the provisions of a Territorial Statute brought suit for tho destruction of his stock 'maliciously' by Justice of the Pcaoo Clinton and a jwssc comita-tits. comita-tits. The jury was packed by the Marshal's manner of drawing and for $19,000 worth of Hquor Engelbrecht got a verdict of $07,000. The Justice's Justi-ce's process was legal on its face and not malicious. The verdict was therefore there-fore atrocious, although confirmatory of tho law which allows three times the value of destroyed property. Wc expect an early hearing of this case to test the validity ol' tho jury abuse which is involved in all (he other trials." "This manner of packing juries by personal selection gives great power to the Marshal, docs it not?" "Certainly. The marshal (Patrick) is a good man and popular; but any of his deputies, no matter how corruptible, corrupti-ble, can also pack a jury. Tho facilities facili-ties for corruption are, therefore, such that out of many great mining litigations litiga-tions in his court, not one has yet come to trial, the contestants not daring to proceed. Our community is filled with adventurers, attracted by the mines, who own nothing on the spot. A purchascable deputy marshal can make a jury of these, buy thou beforehand, make his pick from them and effect the title tp property worth millions." "How should the juries be picked ?" "According to the law of tho Territoryby Terri-toryby lot. The statute of the United States says the manner of choosing in federal courLs shall assimilate assimi-late to that of the State or Territorial courts within which the particular United States oourt ra.iy be. Mr. Attorney Hillycr, therefore, asked McKcan to charge the marshal toselcet from the assessment roll by lot. McKean Mc-Kean refused to assent. In Brigham Young's case the marshal went out and ransacked for twenty-three jurors; three out of this picked lot were discovered dis-covered to be Mormons, and McKean ruled them off." "What was the actual title of the offence against cha-tiiy for which Young. was indicted?'' " 'Lewd and lascivious conduct and cohabitation' an old Utah statute made to protect Mormon decency. There is but one such statute in terms in any State code Ma sachusetts andthishw been interpreted by the courts to apply only to open licentiousness, licentious-ness, and not to secrei cohabitation. The offence meant ia against public decency, not chastity. The court wanted to indict Young for adulterj'i but could not get one of his wives to complaio. They would not indict for polygamy, because the second marriage could not be proved, being secretly performed. The old man, therefore, is made to pass under a law he signed as a polygamist and which was passed by polygamists." Here some interruption happened, and wc broke off a very interesting : conversation. New 'orc Herald, j Nov. 10. |