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Show PAGE 9 THE ZEPHYR APRIL 1992 Zephyr But But dogleg is only adding 37 miles, compared to die route of die proposed road. And if yon look at a map, die new road will create a new dogleg to die east Sam: Sure. If I had my druthers, I'd take it straight north from Crescent Jet Land Before Time Zephyr: To me, the issue centers on economics. First, do you think that Grand and Uintah Counties can build this road and bring it up to grade so that UDOT can pave it for $12 million? Sam: I'm not sure, but I would doubt it 1 would doubt it very much. A lot depends on which route they're allowed to follow. There are millions of dollars difference between the preferred alternative which goes through a wilderness study area and die next alternative which skirts it Ten million dollars difference. It'll be interesting to see what happens there. But I want you to understand the position of the UDOT commission. We studied that Wilbur Smith proposal, and we decided as commission policy, that we would implement that plan as rapidly as we could state-widWhen Grand and Uintah County appeared before our commission and made the pitch we could see half of a problem evaporating through local initiative. I didn't bring the made, they I motion; don't even have a vote, except in a tie. Now, where will we get die money to pave it? Rocks & Fossils 5 No. Main Moab 259-664- 4 featuring: Dinosaur Bones Crystals; e. I don't know. Zephyr: At that UDOT meeting that we discussed earlier; I spoke to a couple of your UDOT engineers who thought this was going to be a $100 million road. That's more than double die cost that has been suggested by Jimmie Walker, Grand County's road district administrator. Since they made that estimate force years ago, they have spent half a million dollars on an EIS, and Jimmie Walker has said that they can't put a final price tag on foe road until Creamer it Noble complete foe engineering for another million dollars. So they've committed themselves to $1.5 million. Now I'm afraid that foe rationale we'll hear next is, we've spent fois much money, we can't stop; even if it costs more duin we anticipated. With money as tight as it is in fois county, can it commit itself to a project without knowing' the price tag? Sam: Oh I think it can, yes. Zephyr: Well, should it? Sam: I don't know. I don't know. I am a proponent of the connection between the two counties. There are alternate routes that I prefer. But the Ute tribe is not interested in a direct route from Crescent Jet Zephyr: But if revenues are so tight for projects that are existing, how can foe state come up with foe money to pay for fois road? In fact sgsin going back to that UDOT meeting, I asked about your commitment to paving foe road, and you said, "We'll pave it; I didn't say when." Is it conceivable that fois road could be constructed by foe counties and then sit for 10 or 15 years before UDOT deals with it? Sam: I don't think it's conceivable; it's an absolute certainty. It would have to be done in phases. So a lot erf these Priority 1,2 and 3 projects, we don't know where the money is coming from, but we do know that if you look at projected growth rates in Utah, we've got to do some future planning on infrastructure. Zephyr That's true. But I think we'd both agree that spending at foe federal level has got to be reduced. It seems to me that there are some austere times ahead. Sam: No question about it Zephyr. That we are going to have to do, not only without things that we want; but things that we need. If you looked at major road projects that are being funded by foe federal government what is a project that you'd be willing to sacrifice in order to do foe "belt tightening? that I've heard you talk about? Sam: That would be awfully hard for me to do. When you've dealt with roads and highways as long as I have, you become an advocate. I make no apology for that. . f Zephyr OK, but dust's foe whole point. That's why we have a $300 billion debt every year. Sam: That's absolutely right Zephyr Because everyone's an advocate of their own particular cause. Sam: But here; you're talking about a dedicated use tax, not a general tax. The people who pay for roads are the people who use them.' Zephyr There has been some discussion that a new Interstate highway could at some point in foe future be routed through Moab. Is that a real possibility? or Sam: I think it's worth talking about I learned when I was a legislature that on controversial items, you talk about in the back room for a year and then out in the open for another year, and then somebody has guts enough to support a piece of legislation. It gets terribly defeated, but ultimately, if it's a good idea, it passes. Zephyr If fois highway was built, where would it originate and end? Sam: It would be an extension of which comes from the SeattiePortland area and intersects in Summit County, and that's where it ends. It makes good sense, I think, to extend it with There are some glowing gaps in die system, and one is from the Northwest to the Gulf states. extended all foe way to Houston. I would like to see So Zephyr you're talking about a system that would come down through Price to Green River and south to Moab and Monticello? Sam: Yes. Beyond that, we're talking to the transportation people in other states about this. It probably go through Cortex, Farmington and Albuquerque. Zephyr Where would it go through Moab? Sam: That is a good question. That is a really good question. Zephyr Would you say goodbye to foe Mountain View subdivision? Sun: Well, either that or die relocation of tremendously expensive utilities rightaways. Those corridors have even made it difficult to consider a truck bypass. Zephyr: That was my next question. I've had foe impression in the past that you oppose a bypass. Sam: Only from the standpoint of cost I don't like the steady stream of trucks either, particularly when you know what some of these trucks are carrying. It's kind of scary. Ultimately we're going to have a problem with leak or a wreck. would go; it Zephyr I'm still having a difficult time imagining where an interstate highway seems like we'd have to remove part of foe town to accommodate it Sam: And those are the things that would have to be taken into consideration. And the route may not go through Moab; it might go through the Grand Jet. area, except you have those terrible mountain passes that are south of Junction. But you have terrible problems just getting to Moab. Parts of US 6, it would be impossible to put in a divided highway. just from Salt Lake to Moab? Zephyr What would it cost to extend Sam: You can't build an interstate for less than $2 million a mile. We're trying to get funding to extend the four lanes on US 6 from Billie's Mountain to Spanish Fbik. It's about 8 or 10 miles at the most The price tag cm that item is $30 million. from SLC to Moab. Zephyr So you're looking at $500 million for dollars. federal about we're Sam: But here again, talking we've also been talking about our federal deficit But know. I Well, Zephyr Sam: That's Jake Gam's problem. foe Burr Trail Do you see a point in foe future Zephyr I'd like to talk to you briefly about when foe state will get involved in completing that road? Sam Garfield County says no. I don't see any real reason for the state to get involved. If they us. It's a low do what they want to do and gets foe road paved, I don't see any real need for One is that they standard road and we have certain criteria for placing roads on foe state system. to that rule all over the not be parallel to an existing state road. Of course, we have exceptions - . . big-tick- 84, 80 . 1-- 1-- 84 (also home of Canyonlands Telephone) state. Zephyr I guess it doesn't matter any more because it looks like Garfield County is getting what it wanted. But before foe Boulder Mountain road was built about ten years ago, foe people in Escalante could argue that they were cut off from foe eastern half of foe state. You mentioned parallel roads isn't foe Burr Trail a good example? Sam: No it's not They're not parallel One goes north and one goes south. Zephyr Coining from Lake Powell car could go to Escalante via Hanksville and foe Boulder road, or they could get there via Bullfrog and foe Burr Trail I think foe Boulder road might add 40 miles to the distance, but foe destinations are foe same. From an economic stand point isn't that a redundant road? Sam: This was a battle that was waged long before it became an environmental issue. Die people of Garfield and Wayne Counties fought over who would get access to Bullfrog Basin. Originally, both roads were sanctioned for construction, but eventually the Burr Trail was only improved as far as the Post. Now, it's a terrible washboard road. But those original proponents of that road never stopped fighting and it became something you grew up with in Garfield County. This is second and third generation. Zephyr. It almost became a cause. Sam: Absolutely. But the ironic thing is, Jim, and I've fold my environmental friends this... and I have some. That you continually tell me that there are some aspirations in Garfield County that you'd like to help them with. But you'll never get specific about it You're against their saw mills; their oil fields, their tar sands, their Butt Trail And it's not a trail; it's a damn good road. I know what a good road is. This is an existing road and here's an opportunity for once to lend your support to an aspiration of Garfield County that's really meaningful to people If we had that kind of bipartisan effort between the environmental people and Garfield County three or four years ago, we would be in serious negotiations right now over a meaningful wilderness bill They will not bend even on a project like this. So we're not going to either. And 1 think that's terribly unfortunate. Zephyr But foe environmental groups can come back and say that they continue to capitulate on one road after another. They can tight 20 battles to stop a paved road and win every one of them. But they only have to lose once. A few years ago, I sent a letter to your newspaper that you graciously printed, which listed all foe roads that have been paved in just fois quarter You're talking about one of foe of the state in foe last 15 years. The list was last remaining dirt roads in southeast Utah that goes from point A to point B. I don't see how you can say that environmentalists are being unreasonable. Sam: If you were talking about forging out into virgin country, I might be inclined to agree with mind-bogglin- g. you. But you're not , Zephyr I'm not talking about virgin country either. I'm just talking about someplace that is still a dirt road. ; Sam: I believe that a decent quality paved road has less impact on the surrounding territory than a dirt road. The road into Ardies used to be a dirt road. Now I think they can handle 705,000 visitors a year, with very little impact to the backcountry, because you have a paved road that gives them someplace to go. Zephyr These dirt roads, which are dwindling in number every year; offer a different kind of experience. Sam: I agree with you , particularly the bottom half of foe Bun TraiL It's almost impossible to negotiate. Zephyr I'm not talking about foe bottom half of die Burr TraiL I'll curse die washboard as much as you will die difference is dud I'm glad there are places like that left where I can curse and scream. Sam: We've argued this one before. from Cisco to Zephyr One last question. What is foe problem with foe 30 mile stretch of the Colorado line? That road is falling apart Steve Noble of UDOT told a local roads person that there had been a problem with foe contract Sam: He told him that because I told him there might have been. We got some information from Colorado who had been experimenting with ways to treat the Mancos shale that gives us this heaving problem. They thought that by laying down a layer of lime, they could stop the heaving. So we did the same tiling, and after three years foe road started to heave apart We looked at Colorado's and theirs was doing the same thing. So three or four years later, we tore up the road completely and took out die lime. I told Steve that maybe we didn't get all the lime when we did that excavation. He sent materials people out there and cored that thing and could find no trace of lime. So what we have is the Mancos shale out there that to continually moving. We have another project scheduled for next summer. Zephyr Doesn't it seem like it's become much worse just lately? Sam: When die frost starts coming out of die ground, we call it the Mancos Heaves. The project next summer will cost about $6-$-8 million to do that To reconstruct the road would $40 million. But foe alternative to to dose the damn tiling, because it's almost impassable. Zephyr. I'm out of questions. Do you have anything you'd like to add? Sam: Not a tiling. Zephyr: OK. Thanks Sam. 1-- 70 Sam: Anytime. is In addition to his responsibilities as chairman of the Utah Department of Transportation, Sam Taylor weekly newspapers. also publisher of Moab s TimeIndependent, one of Utahi longest-running I I |