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Show THE ZEPHYR AUGUST 1994 PAGE. 11 p Groene: But, for instance, regarding the film industry, we haven't said: don't make films here, we've said: do it responsibly. If they go to Arizona because they've heard the BLM doesn't enforce die rules as strictly, Out's not our problem. If someone wants to say: because of SUWA, BLM is now following the laws, I for that won't great. Rutter Regardless of die economic impact? apologize Groene: Why does that have to have an economic impact? When they come here they always say don't have to they damage the environment. ..Great Do it that way. Rutter What impacts to you think SUWA has had on die mining industry? -Groene: Very little on the hard rock industry because there is so little of I challenged one hard it rode mine a couple years aga There's mare damage from guys selling daims than selling gold when they get in there with dozers doing assessment work. But I think there's very little economic advantage to the community from that kind of work. I don't know of any challenges to die coal mines up around Price from environmentalists. There's the Kaiparowlts mine which we are fighting. Rutter What do you think die impact by SUWA has been on tourism? Groene: I heard there are some people mad at me because they say I shut down tourism, which I understand Stiles has done too. But I also get the criticism that I don't do enough fo deal with it That I look away from it But I think stopping die oil and gas fields in little Canyon is a positive thing for tourism. A negative might be our trying to stop the Jeep Safari a couple of years ago. We didn't have an effect, but we tried to. And well probably try again when the permit comes up. Overall, I think you can say that protecting southern Utah environmentally is a good thing. Carelessly trashing places is not in anybody's best interest in the long term. And while my goal here is not to boost die economy of southern Utah, I think you could make the argument that southern Utah is shooting itself in the head if it allows the environment to be destroyed, whether by recreational use, or oil and gas, or whatever. Rutter What has been your biggest success with SUWA? Groene: One, I think that there has been a greater accountability by federal agencies in public lands management I think diem is more openness. The Utah BLM, to its credit has one of die best public notice systems anywhere. So I think there has been a response to criticism and appeals. The other thing is that with our wilderness bill, it was treated with very little credibility at first Now it's one that has a fair amount of dout around it The agendes and the industries know where the boundaries are. And I think we're gaining public support in Utah for wilderness. Rutter And what has been your biggest disappointment? Groene: The ongoing degradation of lands. All of us could describe something that was out there ten years ago that is gone now. Whether it's a nice little campsite near Moab that you used to be able to have for yourself, that's gone. Stiles: How do you compare die degradation of die land from cattle to the current degradation from tourist development? Groene: Cows versus condos? Take a step back and look at it objectively. No one can deny that livestock grazing did an enormous amount of damage, and it still does. When you see places that have been removed from grazing for 20 years, you can see the improvement. Now the argument is, if we get rid of the cows, well have condos. If you drive from Glenwood Springs to Aspen, you'll see virtually all the ranches have been lost to condos, and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with grazing restrictions or fees. What happened is that land got so valuable for other uses Gfcwfe that it was inevitably going to be lost to those uses. If people think they can stop that by keeping the grazing foe low at $1.90 they're kidding themselves. That's a problem that has very little to do with public lands debate. The public has to deride how important those areas are and provide the subsidies to keep that land in open space. But it is unrealistic to think that public lands ranching will ever compete to keep those lands in open space. Economically it just won't happen. Rutter: Your position then is, neither cows nor condos. Groene: Let the record reflect that now Hank has a smirk on Ms face. There should be neither cows nor condos in (daces where they don't belong. Rutter: So if you had your druthers, you wouldn't have any grazing on any public lands in Grand County? Groene: No But's too broad a sweep, because there may be places where it's not doing damage. Stiles: So are there ran Acts in southern Utah who you feel are environmentally responsible? Groene: I don't know the land that well to cover every allotment. I don't know. What do you want me to say? Stiles: Is it possible to have a ranch in the West that's environmentally compatible? Groene: I'm sure there is, but my concern is that there are areas where, no matter how responsible you are, it just doesn't make sense to have cows. For example, narrow canyon bottoms in riparian areas, it makes no sense to have grazing in a place like that. It has nothing to do with whether the rancher is a good or bad person; the land just doesn't fit that use and we need to find those places and stop grazing in those areas. And I didn't mean to dodge your question, Hank. I'm sure there are places with certain grazing practices that it makes sense. But it's a complex question that requires a lot of management to run it effectively. Clinton's grazing proposal stinks, but looking at their projection that over the next 20 years, there would be an 3 reduction in the amount of forage consumed by livestock grazing; their proposal won't change that much. But what they're saying is there wUl be economic decline in the industry, and that will make more of a difference than anything rise. The environmentally marginal areas are the ones they'll skin first because it doesn't make any sense to do it there economically. Next month: Rutter and Groene mix it up again in the second part of the interview. 3303? (BfiTftoaii 25469,9,9 I reach fora GREAT WHITE SHARK. When It's 113 In the shade, and I feel Ilka Ongoing to wilt.,. A quiescent frozen confection that was rated the best In this month's Popslcle Review. Jin Santa's NORTH AMERICAN RIVER EXPEDITIONS 543 North Main Moab, UT 84532 239-38- 63 or 800-342-39- 38 CATARACT CANYON in CANYONLANDS NJ 0NEDAYI99 TWO DAYSONE NIGKT-$2- 49 Grand Canyon Class Rapids LEAVES DAILY |