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Show PAGE 12 THE ZEPHYR SEPTEMBER 1991 somewhere left of right by Jane S. Jones Bridging the Gap An interview with Scott Groene Scott Groene Is in charge of the local Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (SUWA) office. He grew up in Kansas amongst a farmlngranching community. His father was the 10th child in a farming family. As Scott puts it, "There wasn't much farm left by the time Dad grew up, so he moved off the farm. I bucked hay summers during high school, but I'm not a farm kid." He'a lived in southern Utah more than anywhere else since then and calls It home. Scott first got a degree in Environmental Conservation and then went back to school later to become a lawyer, graduating In 1986. He lived in Mexican Hat for three yeers, where he did advocacy work for people under the poverty level. He had been Involved with SUWA for some time and next moved to Salt Lake City to work for them, where he was hired by Wayne Owens to work in Washington, D.C. He stayed for six months and then decided he wasnt cut out for Washington. Scott took a little time off, the then recently moved here to Moab to open SUWA's new office. I have freely edited my Interview with Scott, which followed no rules other then behind to the emotions of public land issues to where we might understand our trying get different points of view. Development Jane: Are you strictly an anti-expansi- anti-growt- person? ent h, Scott: Yes. Jane: Is that generally the view In SUWA? They are just kind of anti...? Scott: But I would turn it around to say it in terms like, I'm for wildlife, for quiet places, for beauty, etc. I think there are some places that development Is not appropriate. I don't know I can show that that makes me you the BLM list that has 60 proposals on We even don't at look half of those. When it you challenge people say you're everything, well, we've only challenged a few projects. BLM Is probably going to sign 300 permits. That means that there are hundreds of decisions being made that we don't even look at, but nobody ever pays any attention to that tact. I definitely do think, however, that there are some areas that should be off limits I to certain kinds of behavior, and if that makes me guess so. I But think that's the only smart way. And it's hard for me to understand people that think every place should be open for everything, because were going to end up with a mess. Jane: Do you think southeastern Utah is one of those areas that probably should be somewhat restricted from growth, development, expansion? Scott: it depends on which part of southeastern Utah. Not all, there's the agricultural areas east of Monticello, stuff like that But if we were talking area by area, there would be a lot of areas in southeastern Utah that I would say, yes, it should be left just like it is right now. Jane: Do you think oil and gas is one of the best tax bases we could have around here, realistically, if you didn't have to worry about hurting the wildlife? Scott: Sure, it provides a good tax base. And we've had a lot of it in Grand County and San Juan County. It's been in certain places where there hasn't been opposition to iL it's when they get into other areas where there are other resource values that it should be measured against, that there's trouble. And our argument has been, the BLM is not balancing whether or not those are the areas where it should be allowed, they only ask, how can we do it Jane: Well, they think by law, they have to let people pursue their leases. Scott: This is the problem. They Issue the leases like they're just paper. They say, this isn't a decision, just a lease, here you go. And then when you come and say you want to drill on it, with your lease In hand, they say, you got a lease, you got a right to drill, we can't stop you. So the decisions sre being made in San Juan County, for example, purely on whether or not the oil and gas market is going to support exploration and development And my argument is, that's a lousy way to decide how to do land management What we ought to do is realistically sit down and look at where should you have oil and gas and where shouldn't you have oil and gas. Not just sit there and wait and see whether you have a boom. Jane: What if everybody decided you should go ahead and do the drilling? Scott: The BLM has a legal mandate for multiple use, which means dividing things up fairly, including oil and gas and recreation and scenic and wildlife. I think there are so many values out there that they couldn't look at Grand County and come up with the decision, yes, it should all be open to oil and gas. I think realistically, there are some places where you anti-everythi- anti-growt- anti-growt- h, h, anti-whatev- Wilderness d Jane. The concept of these wilderness areas that are proposed, doesn't that detract from your credibility to have these oddsshaped areas of land, obviously drawn that way to avoid the Improvements of man, the roads, etc? Where is the concept of solitude, of wilderness then? it seems that this just proves the sreas really aren't suitable for crazy-shape- wilderness. Scott: Our perspective is this: if you look at the Colorado Plateau and if you look at kind of a circle around Lake Powell, there's this big chunk of land that still looks pretty good. Now, there are roads that chop across, but we've said we're still Interested In this area and It really ought to be left as natural as possible. There are roads that are running through It and were going to draw our boundaries to those roads. People are still going to be able to drive through there. We don't think there should be any more development In those undeveloped areas. That's just the Idea: don't fragment It any more that It already Jane; But aren't there ways to stop development without turning It Into s wilderness srea? Ways to plan for no development? I Scott: I dont know what they are. From what I have seen snd experienced, think IMW I wilderness Is the best gusrsntee thst sreas won't be developed. know there's jUllons of I laws out there, but I haven't seen them stop much, and stop stuff In areas that think should I be off limits to certain kinds of development You see stipulations, but don't see that given the same protection. Jane: Why don't we Just go ahead and let things remain as they are, in multiple use, and If our worst fears are realized and we don't have many wild lands left, and we think we need it all over, let It go back, restock more, we can Just reclaim, remove the developments, doze It, and we've got all the wild lands that everyone wants. Scott: The answer Is that It's easier to stop a Target store then to tear one down. This Is Is concerned. I feel like something that I think Is kind of Important as far as my perspective million acres of BLM acreage that every time something happens, we lose, There were 22 at one time was natural and wild. The BLM now thinks there are 1.9 million acre, or 1.4 on the Paramount proposal. We're the optimists. We think there's almost six million acres. So when people say, why don't you Just compromise, we say, hey, It seems like there1 In already been a lot of compromise; Besides, It's a one way street Once you put a road, it's there forever. Jane: But It can't be harder to take out that road than It will be to have an Act of Congress to take wilderness out We can't go back. Thats what scares us both ways on this Issue of wilderness. For me, I know once we go to wilderness, It will never change. Scott: I agree. To undo It will be very hard. Jane: And that's the way you want It. Scott: Youre right The only reason you'd ever get it done was In the esse of a true national emergency. And that's the way It should be. Mining and Oil snd Gas Drilling Jane: Oil and gas drilling Is set up with leases, royalties, no patents, etc- -, you know the set up. Do you want mining to be regulated about the same way? Scott: It seems to me that If oil and gas has to pay the government directly for what they take our of the ground, so should miners. Jane: But to me, mining Is the last good deal. Why ruin It like oil and gas? Don't you agree that small-timehave been pretty much run out of the oil and gas business because of Increased bonding, regulations, red tape, etc? Scott: I've seen some small rigs that did all right out In Kansas. They were pretty small and out in the they did all rlghL And I've heard there are some small operations, rs wild-catte- rs Cisco desert But oil companies are plenty willing to spend huge amounts even If they have to pay royalties for the oil and gas they find. In tact, it's probably even more expensive to look for oil and gas than it is for locatabel minerals. That makes It sound like it's even harder to find oil and gas and people are still willing, without subsidy, to try and get It out Jane: Because oil is in such great demand today. Scott: But back to mining, would you let somebody go Into your backyard snd tell somebody else, "See if you can find some gold out there, and if you do, you can have the gold for nothing. You don't have to pay me for the gold you And, because I'll benefit in other ways." And you're saying the federal government should do that? Jane: Yes, they should, because of the benefits the government will receive In the long run. Scott: Which are? Jane. The benefits are Immeasurable. Jobs, citizens who are making It financially on their own instead of standing In line for welfare checks. A big company can't search out minerals the way the prospector can. The little guy kills himself doing ground work the big company can't afford to do (they'd have to pay a geologist a salary, for years, to do the same thing), and locates strategic minerals like gold and platinum group metals, rare earths, whatever. His payoff almost never covers his expenses and sweat equity. Scott: Well, if the gold isn't worth it now for miners to pay those costs the same as oil and gas does, maybe we ought to leave it in the ground until we need it badly enough so that it is economically feasible. Do you think it should be the governments concern whether the small-timcan be in extractive Industries? er lUatn Street Gjlomers & rjifts Funerals Weddings House Plants Balloon Bouquets Silk Arrangements Cactus Dish Gardens Foliage Dish. 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