| Show THE OGDEN discussion E ENDED A TRIUMPH OF TRUTH I 1 OGDEN CITY utah may uth 1884 E editor deseret metes 0 the second nights debate I 1 came ai orn orf this evening the tho assembly was larger than was that of the first night about A k THOUSAND persons of all classes surrounded the building and crowded to the doors before they were open in intact fact so great was the pressure that twenty five minutes before the the time one pair of doors were forced open and the crowd rushed in pell mell in five minutes the house was so crowded that not another individual could press his way into the house it is estimated that fully a thousand people were TURNED AWAY from the doors last night nigh t because bebau ise there was no room for ton them on the inside it is questionable if there will again be such sueh large gatherings in this place for a long time to come there were scores of teams from all parts of the count country rv the ogden tabernacle choir furnished the music tonight to night tacy opened the proceedings by singing hee see tee the mighty angel flying see he speeds his way to earth prayer was offered by elder joseph A west elder rich then in a few well chosen words called on the audience to abstain from any noisy demonstration while the speakers were addressing 11 t the he congregation REV MR R U HARTLEY was wag the first speaker he lle said hein heln he intended to speak plainly plaint y but there was one peculiar feature ot of the faith of the latter day saints that he be would not speak of ile he need not name it Voly polygamy gamy gamo he should speak of revelation but not of revelation as believed in by the church of latter day saints he lio wanted the tho old revelations but no modern revelations ile he confessed that there were many things in the scriptures he did not understand der stand but buthe he could not find anything in ille the bible that INDICATED NEW revelation X he then referred to the prediction of paul that the time would come when the people people would not endure sound do doctrine gille butwill but will heap to themselves teachers lia iia leaving lla having ving atchin itching ears eans the speaker asked he said in all candor whether these predictions referred to the doctrines taught by tile the latter day saints or by him the speaker mr nin hartley then spoke 0 beof of a revelation commanding tile the 6 saints t s t to 0 build a temple but sali said sald he they i failed a lie ile c 1 to f fulfill fulfil the purposes of that command and thus he lie concluded that that was not gods way of doing business and the tile speaker co could uld discern tiie tile finger of a liall doila 14 taj revelation and thus he rejected it as being beang stamped with human thought only lie he next d the organization OF THE CHUR CHURCH CH of jesus christ of latter day saints ili in which it was claimed there were living Apost apostles les ies and other officers inspired TV rud red by the almighty now said mr I 1 hartley a artl it is nee noe necessary essary that a man must see gee so 0 jesus christ in order that he maybe may be his apostle and if elder rich can prove to him that the twelve men who claim to be the apostles of jesus have seen christ he will then believe the them in and aud accept them as such otherwise he will not mr nir I 1 bartley argued that as there was only one true title christ it followed that there were only OW oine TWELVE arosta APOSTLES Is ile he said we may as wea wed wel wei claim that there are other true christs as claim there are other apostles than the twelve that were with christ in his ministry on tile tiie earth in quoting the scripture which says that god has set some in his church first apostles etc he argued that it simply tells what god had done in an clent times but he did not mean that lie he would do this 1800 years after that period and that there is no scripture to prove that lie he would the ancient twelve have their names written oil on the gates rutes of the beautiful city jerusalem and ad they are crowned in lii the glory in the holy ly city this being the case lie asked what are aue you going goin to cowit do with these other twelve apostles of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints air hartley then refer referred to the gift of healing and said sald the mormons cormons Mor mons claim to have this gift in their church Cli cil he believed the sick could BE HEALED THROUGH FAITH but that faith falth cannot be exercised at will by any man in these days besides in ancient times medical science was but little known and it was necessary for the lord to give faith to the people to heal the sick now however the lord heals them through the means of medical science lie he had been in ogden some three years and he was much astonished that he had neverseen never seen or heard of any person being healed by the mormon faith yet there are vast numbers of afflicted men and women in the hospitals why did clid the mormons cormons Mor mons not go andreal and heal them if they possess this gift and thus pr prove ovelt it if lie he possessed that gift he would not be so small he would not confine his labors to utah he would go goto to new york and there he would turn the religions upside down and cause a big revolution oy dy the good he would do by healing all kinds of afflictions mr nir hartley next nest said the ilor mor mons claim clatin to have power to confer on others the GIFT 01 uhe une HOLY GHOST by the laying on of hands but lie he believes god gives ills his spirit to all men that come colne into the world without the laying on of hands which is not necessary sar and therefore the claims of the mormon gormon church in this respect are swept away and their religion is 6 no better and possesses no more power than the rest of the religions in the world his thirty minutes had now expired and elder irvine san sang gang the gospel song ELDER ben BEX III nich lrich then occupied thirty minutes he said he had been much disappointed the previous evenin evening as he expected to learn learn from mr Il hartley artley something of the religious tenets of the various sects of christendom in the world but this gentleman had said little or noillia nothing about them but as mr hartley said saia he believed the bible was written I 1 by y holy men of god and as the baptists adopt it as tiie tue SUPREME LAW for the government of their church elder rich proceeded to answer from that standard some of the gentle mans objections and to show that his religion does not correspond with the doctrine taught b by jesus christ and his apostles y he e then read the passages in onomy and revelations which mr hartley had quoted to prove that there would be bd no more revelations given to man and showed that many revelations had bad been given to the human family since those times through h the prophets of the lord and also proved from the record that many anany more revelations are to be bb given in the latter days and that john himself was yet to prophecy before many peoples and nations that ultimately t the e spirit of god will be poured out upon all flesh and as the testimony of jesus is the spirit of prophecy all who come in possession 0 s of that spirit will be prophets prophets to a greater reater or less extent elger elier elder eider rich next proceeded to show how mr hartley the previous evening contradicted HIMSELF the reverend gentleman said sin sifi is tile the transgression of the law of god the soul that linneth shall shail die dle that the transgressor is damned daane d and talat that eternally bethe yet he said god so lov iov loved edthe the world that ile he gave ills liis only begotten son to die for the world that IN whosoever will believe on him shall not perish but ne he shall shail be saved and the greater the transgression the greater the salvation all thatis that is required to effect this salvation is simply belief in christ The speaker next proved from scripture that although without faith it 1 is impossible to please god 11 faith without works is dead aua and that it requires obedience to the command merits of god to obtain salvation in his kingdom in answer to the objection to the continuation of apostles prophets etc at the present time elder ilich eich demonstrated that they are arc and will be necessary until all come into the unity of the faith which is not the case now there are on this stand at the present time four or five ministers represent representing im as many different faiths and modes of oT baptism which they teach to the people as the gospel of jesus christ now these gentlemen ent lemen take the bible go to the heathen nations each eacil ohe obe alls alis upon the heathen nations to believe it as the word of god and to be converted b but ut on investigation the idolater Ido lator finds these gentlemen all believe the nible bible e differently from each other lie he becomes confused by their contradictions and the poor benighted soul rejects them and the book too elder illch ilich bore testimony that he knew that thai through faith and the laying on of hands persons not members of the 11 31 mormon ormon church had bad been healed by thle THIP rowell powell or OF GOD his testimony was confirmed by that of elder moroni F brown lie he also bore testimony that while those who were represented by mr hartley are arc dest destitute t ute of the correct knowledge of the principles of the gospel are without apostles prophets signs gifts and prophets ble bie blessings flags follow following ng the oel lel believers levers ievers all tiles these ot things in Is arc are to be found in the church of Jesus jesus christ of latter day saints and if mr lir hartley will obey the gospel in sincerity he will have a kno knowledge medge redge of these things for himself MR MK HARTLEY bantley twenty minutes following IngEl elder eider derRich rich eich in answer to there being only one plan of salvation or only coneway one way wax to heaven he did not believe it ile he found that there were no less than 16 ways that a person can go from that tabernacle to the railway depots it makes no difference which of these roads betakas betakes he be takes he will be sure to reach the depots and so it is with him and his brethren of the different denominations no matter how varied their faiths and doctrines they will if they keep on all reach heaven and sit down in the kingdom of the blessed savior all that was required of them was to believe on the lord jesus christ he said however that he would not attempt to reply to mr rich elch but advised all latter day saints as ion lon long iong as they remained in the church to obey bey the rules of the church but if they become dissatisfied investigate the matter until the doubts are cleared up ile he blamed no one for the faith he e was not in ogden or utah to fight the MORMONS OR 11 he desired to know nothing but christ and him crucified this he would preach and invited all the mor mons to go to ills his church and hear him he advised his congregation to go and hear and investigate imor mormonism I 1 and if they like it the best to embrace it yet in closing he said he believed in ten years from now the mormon church will have made great progress downwards that it would become merged in the other christian churches ELDER elden B D E RICH made the closing remarks lie ile reviewed the previous address of himself and mr nir hartley in which lie ho further demonstrated demon sti abed the fallacy of the reverend gent lemans reasoning r he lle spoke of the divine authenticity of the mission of joseph smith and the twelve apostles and testified that signs followed the believer in the doctrines they taught he then called upon all who were in that immense congregation who knew knesy that miraculous beall healings n 1 had llad been wrought by those who had I 1 ia I embraced the gospel as taught by joseph smith the twelve anu and the elders of tiie tile the so called mormon church to rise to their feet immediately MANY hosy HUNDREDS of saints stood up like ille an army and mr hartley in astonishment stood up tip to view the to him oon wonderful wondern won derf a s spectacle PC elder rich then said all ali who know that joseph smith yas was a true prophet Prop liet ilet of god let them raise the right hand band a forest of hands was at once uplifted at this juncture ider elder E illch icil tell turned himself round and facing the sectarian ministers said in a very ver y impressive impress ve manner mr hartley six interested witnesses as recorded 14 11 the testament haye hilve testified th that lt mir miracles acles neles were wrought by the power of god godby by the disciples of christ these witnesses arc dead but you accept their testimony as truth I 1 have produced to you roll tp night iii ili ri this house heyum hundreds of jiving v witnesses vit esSes who are a aye e testified that they e know that joseph smith ivas was ani an is a prophet ro hol hel of bf god pod ai and ad thap that through h him hlll an and many others numerous numer pus cases of A miraculous healing baw of G sick sick by I 1 the power of god have beca wright wroy t in this our day now sir IMPEACH THEIR TESTIMONY if you can but it cannot be done he closed by bearing a strong testimony to the divine mission of joseph smith brigham young john taylor the twelve and the elders of israel the vast audience maintained the strictest order and listened with profound attention to all that was said by each speaker during the evening no loud demonstrations of approval or disapproval ma of anything that hat t was uttered were ni anesteL all ali U appeared 1 to interested in the discussion t of the principles truth is mighty and win prevail I 1 the meeting closed at 10 weber |
