| Show THREE MEN Q ED Markham Stubbs Un Unfolded Unfolded folded Their Views Chicago Jan 9 ILM M C Markham traffic tic fic manager the was as the fIrst witness called before the Inter interstate eta state te commerce commission when the in investigation of the Harriman lines Unes was re resumed resumed Markham w was s questioned d bY bYC byC C A Severance of St Paul acting for forthe the thc commission The witness was asked if the Union Pa PacifIc due and Southern PacIfic were priOr to their competitors tors for trans transcontinental continental business He sal said the they were BoC Before re going to the Missouri Pacific Mr l m was connected with the Il 11 Illinois Central saW that both roads were extensive competitors for PacifiC coast business originating along the line or of the tho Illinois Central Was any comp competition consolidation 1 after the L Competition Was Less It was generally understood that the Competition was less Mr Markham declared that in his opinion opinion ion the Union Pacific was not a link In transcontinental transportation as con contended contended tended yesterday a by the attorneys of Mr Harriman but as long as the Portland gateway is open It Is a Pacific coastline coast line lineIn in itself The Tho witness said that consolidation the and Southern Pa cHic IInes were competitors for the Call Cali California fornia fruit trade and for passenger bust busI busIness bustness ness also Mr Marl Markham bam was by Mr MIlburn who took exception to tile the statement made by the witness that he considered the tue tT lon Pacific an Inde pendent Pacific line He asked the Uie wIt witness ness It if the Southern Pacific acting as an independent line could cOlla not give to the Union Pacific a largo large or small amount of eastbound traffic at Ogden Witness Did Not Know III at dont know whether It could coul or not There are arc Influences at work which would prevent it But the Southern Pacific as an lade inde independent pendent pendant line mIght do this It might and destroy itself Mr lr Milburn then If the Pacific via Portland to San Francisco was to be compared to a direct line west of Ogden The witness replied The rate ratO settled those things and rates can bc 10 thade as low via yla Portland to San Francisco ns as b by an any oth other r route Mr Ir said that while acting fis as fisa a assistant traffic manager of the Illinois Central it was vas understood that traffic originating west of a line drawn from Cairo to the tIie vicinity of Cleveland was wast t to go west via Ogden traffic originating east of that line was to go via New Or Of Orlean leans lean i Railroad Attorneys View Mr nut the statement that in all Pacific const coast traffic originating tUng tUngon on tile the Illinois Central that line an and the Southern PacifIc must be factors his oh ob beIng to show that however th tile traffic went tile the Southern Pacific was as ascertain certain to be an element and could not be bein bein in all cases construed as a competitor or of tha Union Pacific Commissioner Lane asked d the it if ithe he considered all transcontinental lines as I competitors to the ext extent nt that the Cuna Cana I dlan is c t r ot e South Southern era ern Pacific The witness replied in the affirmative CommissIoner Clements asked when the Union Pacific and Southern PacIfic were competing for tor Central traffic the tho rates were Identical b by both lines The published rates were the same lIe he replied In to questions b by er Knapp the witness said that the only difference to the Illinois Central made by br the combInation or of the two roads waS that the freight that the Illinois Cen Ce was compelled to ship via yla Omaha which have otherwise been taken via New loss to It of ofa ofa a haul and a corresponding loss In revenue Stubbs on the Stand The n t was J C S ibbs lic dire the die Union and Southern Pacific S S many ques questions questions Ir Stubbs said that the rates from Pittsburg tot the Atlantic thence Morgan Steamship lines and South to are the e same Ls those thosa via the route but he beH d ve very little freight from pittsburg or Wheeling e ever r went that way ked whether his lis Chicago office could not route freight either via New Orleans or Ogden witness said that the line Une on whIch the traffic originated originate d t the e route Mr Stubbs tubbs saId there was wa strong competition In Chicago for Pacific coast busineSs H He was asked if i Nehl mc meyer er the Chicago agent w was s a com competitor competitor for tor this business He 15 i a aIs Is he a co as a between the Union Pacific and South lIAs Js over hew 13 That means he was never a corn com Mr Nelm E Cl has a been hoon In to ii from this tIlis J ia oga ogden Il If ht he worl ll for Cor any other road he his instructions Answers Not Satisfactory Mr Ir Kellog Kell gg asked ked stio rp re regarding garding the of the Union Pa Pacific Pacific an l Southern c designed esi d to show that the roads wate prIOr to but w ors Mr S Stubbs answers ere rc not always act ry to the attorney I i hind said tIr Ir what t your idea is but 1 am am your ou the facts as I Know kow them w wI I od p Mr 11 Iel oRb just you ou ar me merr Mr rr cl that the attorney entirely l the fa that thit the Is a con connection of the Southern Pacific P I dont overlook it at all broke In Mr lr l And c Mr Stubbs ignoring the Interruption the they I are not c competitors for C California s sAnd And never were Not according to my theor theory Both Roads in Pool How was It then when both roads were members of the pool o on Pacific coast business the Southern Pacific 21 per ce cent t and ancl the Union Pacific 30 per percent percent cent of the thc business There were other oilier lines Jines in that pool YOU OU must remember Mr Stubbs wa was asked edIf If earlier in his connection with the Southern Pacific the Union Pacific made higher rates to Cali California California fornia from points west of New ew York than from New York Itself the Southern Pacific was compelled to as sume the eastbound haul to New York in order to connect connet wIth steamship lines rhet was done 1011 said Mr 11 Stubbs Stubbe We had to he be consistent He was wa asked if 11 at that time tile the South Southern ern em Pacific was not opposed in the malt maltIng lug Ing ot of these rates by the Union Pacific Oh I dont think so he replied Wore thc they not competitors tr Pa Pacific Pacific coast business at that time The They were that Is the Southern Pa Pacific Pacific prop f was a competitor of the line formed b by the Pacific md 1111 the Southern Pacific w west t from Ogden to Mr in answer to questions said prIor to 1901 the Union and Pacific had separate solicitors In various cities seeking the same Pacific coast coust bus loess Incas WOuld Not Cut Rates Mi Kellogg asked M I Stubbs if h e would permIt the cutting of rat rates s b by tHe Southern Pacific in r to take busi business ness from the Pacific or rice ice versa versaNo No lIe he replied Did you ou cut rates on Southern Pa Pacific cinc In order to take business tile the Union PacIfic prior to the tho tion r I think not noL You OU did that Io 0 Never cut tiny ny lat rates a We Vc never originated any cut rates Are Arc not rates abo 10 per cent higher than before the con consolidation Z ZAll All the lines trIed trea to advance rates 12 per cent but but it It could not be maIntained II Mr Kellogg submitted to th the wItness t showing that the Union Pa cUe thad greatly in the last rew years and asked Jt If in v view ew ot of this he consIdered the present rates as equitable I consider them entirely 1 Competition Still Keen I And nd the competition between the Union Pacific and the Southern instill keen Just k ken kenDo en enDo Do this J N NO I know it asked If tile tho P Pacific owned sto stok k in the Southern Express s company n tr g replied h he b believed It 11 dId He was was ed It if tho Pacific held stock In tO company compan The witness was vas but the Union Pa torne s s gald ld thae railroad held O per the s stock I re to l r Lones qu Mr Stubbs Stubbe declared ere IS S much thin between tr nt l Un lines s J as ast as t re v r was Would the fact asked Mr Ir Lane Laneth th t tw roads such as elite and the Great Northern under tInder one ownership have any effect on rates believe it would lave a particle of effect said Mr Ir Stubbs Arrangement With Ro Grande II to further qU questions of Ci Corn m Lane Mr Stubbs said that while the Southern Pacific deals the Union Pacific it h d cj a ar r reciprocal arrangement with the Denver er erRio Rio Grande by which the c gives to the Denver RIo Grane dt Ogden as much traffic as It receives from that line ner Clements asked Mr Stubbs It if he wo would l sanction rates without that his reg todo the same sameI I dare do it replied the wit r nes Then there such a thing us as anin dep line It is just as independent as any meni em bet berof oC society can be Eer ma is compelled 1 to his natural rIghts for thi 1110 gOd pf JI tl whole I see no in this case casc 1 a company said CJ m is 15 IQ ier cent 11 liv that a ground r und for Or rc reducing rates r S Ss I I s 4 Remembers the a I dont know said witness t ti i it Is expedient l nt fOr me mc to give ghe my Personal l I n on that If you are to I t e Pacific I i would sa say that it Is the thc lean years that tile talon stockholders have taye gone through the I should not sa say that reduced rates are arc for forIr Mr Ir MIlburn In Ill commencing the cross sai saId There may be lean years vears in the ture mii rna there thel not notI I hope u t I am afraid there be The last few years ears h have w been very regard to the thc raIlroad busl busi business ness Mr Milburn brought out from Mr Stubbs s the statement that he considered the notice of proposed ti n or rates as s dir directed b by the new rate law as a distinct benefit because he b be It would brIng about increased sta stability of rat s Competition Would Still Exist Questioned b by Harlan re regarding re regarding garding railroad competition Mr Ir Stubbs Stubbe said that otie owner for Imps s di diG l not mean the destruction of competition Mt Hill I said ts Is Probably the If leading railroad man manin in this country and h cannot If he would destroy Hon between n the Great Northern arid and Northern Pacific must E employ vice rice presidents and general These men have hae their reputations to uphold or to construct rhey fhy will work for their own line against the other othel lin line and is inevitable It H Mr Ir Hill should taka tak t spirit out of his man he might us u wen well hand band th ir manag ent over ocr to U a one otie hun red Examination of Hannaford tr Ir was nas succeeded on th f tan tanby by J N Hannaford second vice cent ent of the Northern Pacific who Is in charge of the traffic on that line Mr Hannaford said that in th the pools conducted prior to the Union Pacific and Southern Pacific were as separate Hn lines s lIe He had always consid considered considered ered the thc Southern Pacific and the Union in connection with the Oregon ne as competitors of the North arn PacIfic for traffic The Northern Pacific could not ot b be an active competitor of the Southern Pacific on oi business from froni the tho east to San Francisco Franciso because the service of the latter line between Now New York and Gaveston could not be equaled across o lakes Mr Hannaford did not consider a corn com combination ot of transcontinental lines meant destruction ot of competition and declared the business rivalry between the Great Northern and Northern Pacific is sharper today than before they went under the sarno samo management Lawyer Spoke With Feeling 4 Mr Hannaford I will illustrate saId Mr Severance Dont you ou believe belleve that the e excellent t passenger service between Chicago and St Paul Faul is superior to that between New York and Boston there are rival lines between n the two and none between the latter two Dont you account for tor the tle mid midnight midnight night horrors tl at run between New NewYork York lork and BostOn on the ground that there Is no there I dont know that they are horrors replied replica the s swen wen Well they y said ai Mr So Severance erance with fee II n i CommissIoners Lan and Harlan asked Mr rr Hannaford many U ng as to wh or n not tn or of owner ownership ownership ship did mean O a of competitIon tIon The not believe that such a result follow Owners Cut re reDo Do you ou believe asked Iel logg that the philanthropic men down downIn In New York who own these hine will give the best servIce they can of their own accord They have very U little to do with the operation of the roads said Mr Hanna Hannaford ford The men men who actively op rato the lines will best servIce the they can The witness by the aU attorneys for Mr Harriman just how gr grea ta t a f factor in bringing business to a raIlroad was a reduction in rates Mr lIr H Hannaford said it depended upon circumstances Suppose said Mr Lane that you an oun a re or rates of a corn com Would the announcement by a competitor of its to m meet et this by a reduction on tie de ter you ou from making your our liro re J 1 It I stood to loso Iose mote more I would woula g glin ln Once it o Jd not but now I um am older than I used to be beThe The was jo rnea until 10 o tomorrow morning |
