Show SEPARATION y WINS THE BAY The Convention Seems to Be Against Educational Union LEAVE TO LEGISLATURE That Proposition ViII Be Considered Con-sidered on Monday i rInlCs an Able Speech for Union The Very Short Article on Irrigation Passed Forestry Article Arti-cle Alno Thoresen Talks About Dnilcs and JVebekcr Defines the Tcim and Says He Can Pitch Hay Against Thoresen Any Day The convention yesterday voted for separation of the university and agricultural agri-cultural college However the vote was only In committee of the whole and was not final as only about two thirds of the members voted and there Is now up a proposition tq leave the whole matter < to the legislature Yesterday was consumed in the debate de-bate on union and the educational article will probably consume all day Monday The abbreviated Irrigation article passed I The Proceedings A quorum did not make its appearance appear-ance until five minutes after the hour The members do not take very kindly to the Early hours t Delegate Karl G Maeser was invited in-vited to offer prayer 23o more suffrage petitions were presented but the reporting of the prohibition article seemed productive of effect Favoring Prohibition Miller of SevIer presented a prohibition pro-hibition petition from the presbytery of utah including 28 ministers 44 elders and 56 mission teachers and representing over 1000 church mem oers and 2500 day and Sabbath school scholars being an ecclesiastical branch of a church which has over 900000 church members With this afere the resolutions passed at Evans I n on July 8 1S94 Rev R G Mc ice attested it Raleigh of Salt Lake presented a similar petition from 37 of the legal voters of the Seventeenth Ward of this city and Button followed with B petition with 39 names That Brief Irrigation Article The very brief article on irrigation and waiterrights was then taken up Coray wanted the whole thing strIcken out saying that as the article ar-ticle had passed it was so short and illgracbd as to be useless unsatisfactory unsatis-factory and dangerous Lauritz Larsen of Sanpete and Thoresen and Thatcher pf Cache spoke in favor of the retention of the article brief as it was Thatcher said the article could do no harm and would do much good as it would give assurance to the people that r their rights will be fully protected under the state The article was perfected and pas ppd by an overwhelming vote only Green Haynes Murdock of Beaver Plaice Shurtliff and Van Horn voting vot-ing against it The article to prevent the destruction destruc-tion of our forests was taken up and passed by an almost unanimous vote It is the only article so far which has not been amended Question of Cash Again Evans of Utah called up his motion mo-tion to reconsider the vote by which the report of the committee on accounts ac-counts and expenditures was adopted adopt-ed He said it was true the clerks k had been hired and should be paid rr But the servant is not greater than the master The clerks should take their chances with the members If they so desired Hp was willing to stay all summer if necessary tot to-t imlsh up business whether he got paid or not He said the report top to-p iy the officers out of the governments govern-ments appropriation had been inserted in-serted in he report by a trick The members did not understand what was being done Hart of Cache said the matter was small There was no trickery If members did not understand It was their own fault More time had been spent over the matter than the compensation com-pensation would amount to Barnes said it was too late to study economy That should have been considered seven weeks ago He I wanted the clerks paid honorably and what was leflt divided Evanss motion was defeated The convention at 1010 went Into committee of the whole with Ivlns in the chair ilgher Educational Union Ro > irts offered an amendment to include the agricultural college in the provision which confirmed the establishment estab-lishment and rights of the university univer-sity CarrieJ N ns of Utah moved that then bi the-n Cor location be filled with the words atoWpJace Anderson moved to strike out tHe agricultural college col-lege fron the departments included in the unl ersity Kerr Wants Concentration Kerr said he was in favor of union of the college with the university He A had visited the leading colleges in r 4 Canada ud the United States and investigated in-vestigated the question He had concluded con-cluded that it wa best that all the institutions of higher learning should be concentrated at one point Goodwin asked if it would not be I better to maintain ithe normal school separately Kerr answered that if the state were rich objections to separation would be removed ito some extent Heretofore however our public institutions u in-stitutions have been maintained largely out > t the public credit But under the state they must be supported sup-ported < by taxes because it will take several years to secure any returns from the land grants The burden wiU bear heavily on the people and J from a financial poInt of view the Institutions In-stitutions should be united on one veite 1 j n 6 J Continued on Page 3 > J Q i ij 1PARATION + VrTINS THE nAY Continued from Page L Much More Economical What will be saved In the university and college many classes in certain lines are V very small and in nearly all thee the-e general departments the pupils of both Institutions could be placed in one ti Class and be well instructed This will effect a great saving But the greatest economy will be secured in the matter Of equipment In all the great colleges col-leges thousands of dollars are expended ex-pended for this In tv University and the college the apparatus must be duplicated and where the institutions are separated double money could be spent without giving greater benefits to students One laboratory one library one conservatory one museum one workshop one machine shop would do for both if united If separated separ-ated hundreds of thousands of dollars must b ° uselessly spent to duplicate them This argument would apply with more force to the normal school or bchool of mines Clamors of Politicians He pointed to North Dakota In answer to the clamors of politicians an institution had been given to nearly every county ever The gag rules of he convention came into play but Kerr was given unanimous unani-mous consent to continue He continued that because of this decentralization the children of North Dakota are practically deprived of N gher education In Montana it is practically the same and the children must seek higher education in some other state Success at Cornell In Illinois Wisconsin Minnesota and Nehraska there is union He read from President Jordan of Stanford commending the concentration of these states and saying It was much better for all the students He also commended com-mended Cornell and said that this example I ex-ample met the objection that through P union the United States government appropriation will be taken from the Agricultural college The agricultural and mechanical arts departments of Cornell receive this amount He quoted also from Cornell to answer the objection that an agricultural college cannot grow up in the shadow of a great university saying the experiment experi-ment there had been entirely success tful as Cornell has furnished more rricultural teachers and experimentalists i experiment-alists than any other college In the i country More than that the presence of other departments and consequent associations tends to broaden all stu dents They may be sneclalists but they have a good general education Driven Away From Home ITt I-Tt there is disunion the Agricultural college can hope for little more than the appropriation of the general government gov-ernment while the University would get only a paltry sum wtich would only take care of the property while the children of the state will be driven away from home Today thousands of dollars are being spent by young people peo-ple who have gone away If all the I money which had been spent on the separated InBtltutlons had been concentrated con-centrated on a university we would I have something to be pround of Moloch of Wealth Endowments are necessary to a great institution of learning Yet while there is uncertainty as to the cation wealthy men will not give oney for higher educational work Its l It-s become a common thing for rIchen rich-en to give part of their means to higher education It seems as though in this commercial age men are turning from the Moloch of wealth to the Apollo of science and I endeavoring to perfect those things which make life worth living Utah can maintain only one Institution Rich men will not endow a starving school But they will help one which will be a credit to them There is only one honorable course Unite the institutions and make a university which will draw the pride of the people Let not the energy of the people be dissinated Let the one institution of higher education be a credit to the state Applause Kerr was subjected to a cross fire of questions pll of which he answered satisfactorily Anderson of Braver said the two J Institutions could be run separately as cheaply as with union With union the Agricultural college would be overshadowed overshad-owed by the university Finance Mnst Be Considered iMaeser said that under all circumstances circum-stances he would not favor union If Utah were rich he would favor the system in Germany where there are separate schools But the con ntion had to consider finances Lund was against union The two Institutions are separate with senarate ends The colleges Is preparing It3 students stu-dents for industrial pursuits Years ago it was seen necessary to establish schools whicn would make trades more popular and keep all young people from a aiming at the professions If united the object of the college would be thwarted because the college would simply make preparation for the university i uni-versity Ricks denied that the agricultural department de-partment at Cornell Is the same as our Agricultural college He believed both 9 institutions could be supported by the land grants made to them by the enabling en-abling act Take it Off Wheels Oocdwln said there is a great staff I of professors at the university and another an-other great one at the college Why 1 should these be In two different institu I j tons in so economical a state as this is I going to be when the convention gets I I through with it The only use of education ed-ucation is to direct the intelligence of children Finances must be considered here and there is no sense in keeping up two or three expensive corps of professors Then too children are sent away because our university is poor and cannot command the necessary respect The thing to do is to build up an institution to which the people of the east can send their children and let them have health while they are studying As soon as the university is taken off wheels and put on a solid foundation it will command respect Rich men will give it something which will make their names illustrious Xo Objection Then Creer said that when the Agricultural college was founded not a member of the legislature not a professor of the university and nobody from Salt Lake objected to separation A criticism on this was a reflection on that and subsequent legislatures It would cost I too much money to make the experiment experi-ment of union I Peters wanted to know if the grants of land would follow if union were I made Pierce said there would be no trouble about that The colleges would be separated sep-arated A recess was taken from 12 until 2 oclock Again when 2 oclock arrived there was lack of a quorum Five minutes after the hour the necessary 54 appeared appear-ed and Chariman Ivlns called to order I Squires Against Union Squires denied that the experiment tried at Cornell university had been a success The scholars in the agricultural agricul-tural departments are looked down on by the other scholars If no action had been taken however he might be led to consider the proposition of union But union either in Salt Lake or in Logan would mean a great loss of property now held An Agricultural I college should be located in an agricultural agri-cultural region while the university should be near the center of population popula-tion The expense of consolidation would be great while he could not see where a commensurate saving would be effected He was not in favor of losing los-ing 150000 in order that the fads of higher educationalists might be carried out Wants Men Xot Duties Thoresen of Cache wanted to let good enough alone The Agricultural college will be a credit to the state if let alone It had the best growth of any such institution in the country Its fame is not limited to this territory but has gone out far into the surrounding states Ninetenths of the people want it When it was first located it was considered an inferior institution and i thought fit to go to any county Farmers Farm-ers will not send their sons and daughters daugh-ters to a great city to get an industrial indus-trial education The Agricultural college col-lege would be thrown into the shade by the University The college is making men not dudes We do not want the University We promise if you keep on giving us what has been given in the next five years we will make an institution of which you can I be proud Boys who go < to the University Uni-versity do not satisfy their parents when they return Home builders are needed in the state not men who have classical educations In Ohio in Idaho in Wyoming the University has overshadowed over-shadowed the agricultural part With union or separation Utah cannot hope for years to compete with the great i educational institutions of the east Generosity Appreciated Tlhatcher said he would vote for separation sep-aration The college was established in the north by the generous votes of the members from Salt Lake county The people of the north have greatly appreciated this generosity He found the same generous feelings on the floor at the time If it should be decided de-cided to keep the institution separate the people of the north would appreciate appre-ciate it but if it was decided to unite they would bow He had doubts as to the union He had seen men who dared to face death without blanching but who would slink away like a whipped cur before a sneer He feared the effect of ithe University on the farmers boys He wanted to buildup build-up I the University in this city until it would be made full worthy of the name of University Leave to the Legislature Richards said the matter should not be incorporated in the constitution He had looked in vain in other constitutions constitu-tions for such provisions The location loca-tion belongs preeminently to the legislature leg-islature Let it unite them if it so desired let it keep them separate if that is found better However if It i came to a vote he would favor separation separ-ation He was not prepared to believe union would be best Raleigh said it was easy enough to understand that if a man had two patches of potatoes one in Salt Lake and one in Logan it would be cheaper to have them together But the same kind of wisdom as that which had made our streets wide had fixed the location of the two institutions They had been built ahead of the times and it was only necessary to wait for times I to change He was generally in favor I of union but some things are better separated especially hair and butter I Laughter Snow said the whole matter should be left to the legislature If delegates would look into their own minds they Would find themselves between doubt and fear They are not satisfied Just what is the proper thing to do but the doubt will be in favor of union on the ground of economy If permanent perma-nent location was made there might be regret The legislature would be much better able to deal with the question A Condition Not a Theory 1 Roberts said if only a theory were up he would favor union but a condition con-dition was present not a theory Union will not compensate for the sacrifice necessary to obtain the benefits bene-fits Grave mischief would result from the uncertainty if the matter is left to j the legislature Nothing could so hurt I either institution as a continuation of I present conditions The time to settle the question was then Being more numerous the convention is more representative rep-resentative than a legislature will be for some time He stood appalled at the prospect of destroying so much property to secure union He was not willing to make the sacrifice in order to try an experiment Where in or near Salt Lake can boys be placed right on the farm The institution at Logan has demonstrated it is a success suc-cess but this is simply a promise of greater success in the future It is possible now to establish a University separate from the Agricultural college able to meet all the needs of our population Hill Do you think that by removal we would lose the value of the lands in Logan RobertsI believer so HillWith the proceeds of the sale of the college building could we not buy land in Salt Lake county RobertsNo I think It would be a total loss Located in Wisdom Farr said the college was located In Logan in wisdom by men of wisdom This applied to the University It had been placed in Salt Lake and should be kept here It Should not be left to every legislature He did not want the whole United States dumped into Utah We do not want too many things together to-gether Hill said that from what he had heard in the convention he had concluded con-cluded that an inopportune time had been chosen for granting statehood The people do not seem able to sustain I it On one hand one says we have not means to carry out one enterprise and then he turns around and says we can spread out over the whole state with educational Institutions He was ready to vote for union in Logan United we stand divided we fall < Murdock of Beaver said the trouble with the college was a lack of patronage patron-age That is one of the objections to keeping it up Hart however replied that the attendance is very good Pupils come from all over the territory and from surrounding states During the winter there had been 365 pupils and there are now 145 Pierce to HartIs not the Agricultural Agri-cultural college being used as a high school for the pupils of Logan HartNo I believe the college Is filling the ideas of the legislature I have heard this same charge against the Unlv d5ty I think they are both being misrepresented I Could Not Maintain Both Ivins asked President Smith to take the chair He said he had come to the last legislature strongly in favor of the college at Logan and its permanent location there It is the most important import-ant question before the convention He remembered the agitation of the question The result of his investigation investiga-tion was that he was converted against his prejudices He knew if he did anything against the college he would displease some of his best friends But he could not help being convinced for union Are the two institutions now alive No We cannot give them enough to carry them on properly The last legislature legis-lature had given niggardly sums For a generation to come the state of Utah will not have it In Its power to firmly and properly establish both institutions institu-tions But it can sustain one He denied he had been steered by Salt Lake partIes He had n simnlv followed his own convictions The legislature which bonded the territory for the public institutions had been caught by the boom fever and had gone crazy It had bonded for 750000 and given more than was needed If the question was left to the legislature he would have to be satisfied But he wanted to seethe see-the institutions taken off wheels Cnnnon Itonits Thoreson Cannon read from President Eliot of Harvard and other authorities in favor of union He had heard President Presi-dent Paul of the Agricultural college make a plea for union when the ques I tlon was up before the last legislature Why this change Now there seems to be a rivalry between the two institutions institu-tions A delegate from Cache I Thoresen had talked of kid gloves and said that graduates of the University t I Univer-sity are disappointments Yet three of his colleagues from Cache were I i graduates of the University He had seen men in Cache who are graduates I and who are yet successful farmers and hard workers I Bowdle said he knew something I about the Agricultural college in Ohio j The separate institution was abandoned because students did not want to attend at-tend what was looked down on as a farming institution Now a strong University has Been established It is not a place on wheels part fcere and part there Farmers sons need not be ashamed to be seen by the upper classmen I class-men The best classmen are from farms In union there is strength He did not care where union is made but he wartted Xcheker Goes After Thoreion Nebeker wanted union It would cast no reflections on any legislature to bring it about The fact is the territory terri-tory had taken too large a contract He did not like Thoresens reference to dudes He had gained all his educa tion at the University but he could pitch rhayT survey water ditches or assay as-say hand samples as well as Thoresen But a dude is born not made by education ed-ucation It is neither male or female He dld not believe it right to keep < the people of Cache or Salt Lake on the ragged edge of uncertainty The whole question should be settled at once For the Poor Kerr said that higher education was for the poor It was the ladder on I which they could climb into prominence promi-nence Rich men could send their sons away Eldredge said he would vote for union Either there must be economy econ-omy in education or the tax levy would have to be made He was not in favor of spending so much money In reply to a question of Goodwin Kerr said that from seven to ten pro I I fessors could dispensed with under union GoodwInWell that is 14000 Hammond said he had been in for separation < when he had seen the girls drill at ithe college But since he had heard Kerr he was for union He would have to reverse San Juan for once Separation Wins The motion to strike out the agricultural agri-cultural college which was the motion mo-tion for separation carried by a vote of 35 to 34 BOWdle Morris and Coray who voted In the negative said however that they were paired and thus the total was really 35 to 31 Thurmnn Warms Up Goodwin wanted the state normal school left out of the university This provoked more debate during the course of which Thurman moved ito strike out the section on the university univer-sity and said there were no precedents prece-dents for locating the educational institutions in-stitutions in the constitution The matter has always been left to the legislature in whose hands they will be absolutely safe An endeavor was being made to confine ito one place instead of an allowance being made for location of a branch anywhere The institutions now established do not belong to Salt Lake or to Logan They belong to the state It comes with ill grace from either of these cities to ask for permanent location The sentiment in Logan and Salt Lake should not be gratified by binding bind-ing the legislature hand and foot Thatcher Would it not be the part of statesmanship to settle this contention con-tention between Cache and Salt Lake ThurmanI think not We should not turn aside from our duties ito settle a squabble between factions After some more discussion in t which Roberts said it was in the interest in-terest of ithe educational institutions to settle the controversy the committee com-mittee arose The convention adjourned at 515 |