Show THE GOSPEL two DISCUSS discussion 1011 between elder ben den E mch and v ard hartley iu in 0 ogaden den v tabernacle on oil tho principles of tho tile gospel as 29 laid down in the bible Monnon ism on oil one side and baptist doctrine on SE SECOND COND NIGHT the second night of the great gospel discussion between E elder ider ben E rich of the church of je bius christ of latter day saints and reverend Reye rend richard hartley minister of the baptist church was attended by a larger crowd if possible than tho the previous evenings exercises long before the appointed time p in a multitude large enough twice to fill the house had assembled around the building and doors were opened it did not take more than two minutes to FILL rill TUE VAST HALL to overflowing all the seats being crowded and the standing 0 room even being ata premium the au dianco was a mixed one both country and city contributing at equal 5 proportions the former making their presence perceptible I 1 bythe by the camp of teams outride outside tho the latter waving their plumes and showing tb their cir bonnets to good advantage van tame 0 it was undoubtedly tho the largest audience that had assembled in ogden tabernacle for a good many years and it waa wag a good natured one that sat under the effulgent rays of the electric electrio flight light and basked in the beams from the additional a dit ional petroleum lampsi I MAN WOMAN AND CHILD were huddled together the deep bass rumbling of the tile paterfamilias pater familial fa milias forming tho the substratum on which the soprano of the girl from the country mingled with the prattle e 01 of the unconscious babe it was indeed not only a sea of faces heaving and sinking swaying and f fraying ray but also a sea of voices swelling and welling like the billows of a sea of expectancy on the breakers of the restrictions of standard time until at the immense congregation were CALLED TO ORDER by E elder ider ben E rich after which the tabernacle choir sang the hymn on page see tho the mighty angel flying see ho lie speeds his way to earth to proclaim the blessed gospel and restore the ancient faith after this hymn which was delivered in good style elder joseph josep h A west called on the lord in prayer being followed by the he choir singing the hymn on page do we not know that solemn we word rd that we are burled buried with the lord baptized baptised sed into his ills death and then put off the body of our sin elder rich made a few remarks tp the latter day saints and all others asking X them to refrain from all interruptions or other manifest aliona ref HARTLEY HY first addressed tho the congregation there must be plain speech this evening principles not men were to be discussed he intended speaking only in the interest of truth he ile wanted to lay the ax of truth on the iree tree of modern revelation claimed by the latter day saints still he believed in revelation lation he lie himself desired it from morning till night he never preached without asking god for ilia iris revelation but ho he wanted truth only as far as already revealed reveal ed he ile knew that jesus was the jc so son n of god the bringer of salvation and he believed in tho the revelation fore shadowing hell and the penalties of sin he ile did not believe however in now revelation and could not discover anything in tho liao scriptures vouchsafing vouch saving to him modern cevela tion fion there were indeed thins in the scriptures which were dart dar b k and mysterious to biro him but so wen were many things in science and pl philosophy illos he referred to tho the sayin that in the last days there ehab como come teachers with itching eara teachers of new things speaking of the prophet joseph smith the speaker claimed ho he hac had come unheralded nothing had been said in the word of ged god concerti con concerning cerni ng that Prop prophets liets coming the speaker claimed that in the early rovela 7 T 7 7 7 lions of the latter d day air saints there were great discrepancies anacon and contradictions tra dictions thero there lad bad been one judas in the early aarif church but that was not repeated re peate in that church the speaker further endeavored to adduce other contradictions in ill the revelations and teachings of the tile latter day saints ho lie wanted a faith that ho be could tie to that changed not and endured forever f brever there ho he though the tile error came ce in that tho tile litter latter da day saints had to take their revelations s from men making their religion I 1 like ike the banks bauks on the mississippi a bar today to day and a shallow low morrow tomorrow to worrow hero tho tile speaker recounted nn an anecdote by which ho be tried to show that in the revelations of ofilio the latter day saints there were tho the finger prints of men A man might como come from huntsville another from lynne another from hooper etc each eacil claiming to have revelation of neman was as good as that of another which one then was to be believed then there was tho the principle of the kingdom referred to by elder rich bea ore which like any earthly kingdom I 1 1 0 in would require an army tho JC kingdom z of god did not want swords i it t was to be within the hearts of man As to tho the organization orga iii of the twelve apostles tho the eraker speaker endeavored to show that tho t c ancient organization was dif ferent from the organization of tho the latter day saints again jesus christ was to be tho the chief corner stone of the church and there should not be one corner stone put up this ye arand another next year he lie opposed the claim of the twelve apostles of tho church of jesus christ of latter day saints as being duly authorized quoting from luko luke XI v 49 in attempted proof that tho the scriptures do noc snow show that I 1 there shall be apostles in the future rev hartley here challenged anyone any one to prove pron to him I 1 that the scriptures spoke quent apostles what was a king without ti a throne or a crown he would rather go into the other world as a sinner sinner sayed by tho the grace of god than as an apostle without recognition speaking of the power of healing he ile denied that god over ever gave the gift to toane any man mail to uso use according to his will whilo he lie admitted that without faith there would not be any healing the cures by faith had been all right before science was known but this did not prove provo anything and ho lie admitted it he doubted the truth of tho the records of faith cures by the latter day saint saints as there had been no evidence furnished but by interested parties and claimed he lie would take the apostles and put them into hoapp u atals with hundreds ot of sick writhing with pain and then why should they not do good and heal lical the in firm it was said that people believed because the miracles were wrought and ho he was willing to bs be li dicye in the church principles if any i visible and tangible evidence of the i truth was furnished him if he lie had the healing power hed go to new york city and overturn the whole religious belief of that community this small community of the saints would not be so small if they had the power of curing by faith which they claim then at last as to the claim of tb the e latter day saints to possess the gut gift of he file holy ghost he lie utterly repudiated it and thought it would be the same as to try to encompass the light of the sun ja in a ring after all tho the saints could not give any better proof of greater divine power than any other organization the day had gone by when asser eions tips based on mere ecclesiastical dictum would bo be taken as proof as the people were getting to bo be too intelligent tell igent for that ELDER ROBERT delivered a spirited gospel bong supported by the tabernacle choir alter after which the tile debate on the gospel principles was resumed by E ELDER LDER BEN E who commenced trusting in the h help p of t the lord he lie had been disappointed i a ap pp i ed last evening expect ing ng t to hear something about the dif ferent denominations of the age he lie had heard nothing from the rev hartley hart ey but about faith and here read the tile first article of faith 0 of f the baptist church also the eleventh of the same from these it appears that the bible should be tho the supreme standard and that the law lair ot of god is 13 unchangeable he ire proposed to take the supreme standard and try the tile revs drevs reli gion the lust last chapter of revelations had been quoted in what condi tion SY then was 9 the bible at the time st john i wrote it was it not then scattered over asia europe and other lands the warning in not to add to this book could onay only refer to this book of cevela tiona this we also see in the ath chapter of deuteronomy where a similar warning is is made which is evidently only meant to refer to that special book in the chapter of revelations wo we find that prophecies were to be uttered to other nations kindreds and tongues again john wrote his gospel ond and his E epistles ties after to tile revelation theford Th eLord god boeth nothing save lie ile reveals his iris win will to his servant prophets the spirit of prophecy is to be poured nT out upon the sons and daughters ers of n men Is this an argument that re elation has ceased that we are to have no more prophecy the testimony of jesus ais the spirit of prophecy every mail who has that testimony to a certain extent is a prophet elder rich then referred to mr hartless Hart leys favorite passage that M i esy tt god so 60 loved the world that ho he gave his iris only begotten begotten q son that whosoever believed in him should not perish now what is belief belich suppose suppo e a person should ask the speaker the road to the depot and he would direct him to the place by correct information and the stranger finds the landmarks as laid out then the lat lattera faith turns to knowledge ho ire that will do the will of the lord will know the truth the true belief in the lord jesus consists in doing his iris will jesus commissioned his apostles to go into all till the tile world promising them that certain signs would follow tho the believers on au an equal footing if those signs wore to caaso at the death of the apostles then of ne cassity salvation ended there then the faith in tho the lord jesus ceased and wo might as well all be infidels together then the speaker illustrated tho the efficacy of proof by the supposition of having baying some of the christian ministers placed among heathen endeavoring to convert them the heathen naturally would be doubtful fl ul about the claims of the ministers and would want to sec see the signs promised in the scriptures to follow tho the teachings but then the reverends would disclaim that tho tile signs igns should follow although claiming to be believers in tho the lord jv je eus ua and then they would be ministers of different gospels gospel all pretending to be believers in the same savior still we read that there is one lord one faith fait honc one baptism m elder rich then passed on to the principle of the organization of the tri church with the various officers for the work of the ministry that all may como come into a unity of faith the ministers of the world going among among tho the heathen would not go with a unity of faith even te arh down or try to tho the principles of tho the gospel As to evidence to be produced for the claims of the latter day saints that tho the gifts gifis and blessings followed them elder rich was prepared to furnish it ho he would furnish it he would furnish personal evidence of the healing by faith of a person in england in ing to the church of jesus christ oc of latter day saints a person given up tip bythe by tho doctors not ex pecked to live but healed through the power 0 av 0 of 1 1 tho lie living god this was 0 on 1 11 ilia 13 1 appeal p peal corroborated by elder moroni P F brown from tho the audience when jesus was led out by tho the devil tho the first thin thing g the latter did was to ask for a sign it is dangelus dan gerbus to ask for signs ssang of the truth whenever Wb enever a person comes into the kingdom through the appointed door lie will receive a testimony of the truth and be convinced by the signs and powers promised to the believers REV it HARTLEY indorsed endorsed indor sed a good many remarks bf E elder aldr rich his faith rested and centered in the bible man should not add to that book god docs does not say he ile shall or will not add to that book in john we read that chap chap x he be should again prophesy in the last days it is said that young men shall prophesy but joel s said aid that before and peters remarks implied a fulfilment fulfillment of those prophecies As to the road to tho the depot there were sixteen roads one just as short and good as the other similarly wo we should not adhere to one dogmatic ironclad irone e 1 ad rule in th the 0 gospel gosp c I 1 on the road to salvation though there were different denominations ou on earth f they would all sit down at the sam 0 table in the tile new jerusalem they all pretended to have the same rule for the securing of salvation the faith in the lord jesus in whose whoso name they were adding thousands upon thousands in all enda ends of the world the speaker claimed that the signs did not follow tho the latter day saints any more than the other churches christ had made special promises to his disciples but these did not necessarily belong belon to subsequent generations iio lie here impugned tho the testimony furnished by elder rich ng as to heal beal ing by faith and said that lie had just enough satan left in him to want to sec see a sign As to the success of numerical strength the rev speaker adduced figures to show that the sectarian churches were far ahead tho the waves of christianity were lapping the rocky mountains and th through the schools and churches of tho Chris christian thu denominations a better day was dawning for utah and if ho he would be a prophet ho lie would predict that in ten years ears the lat ter day saints would woud como come into a unity in faith in his sense As for himself ho he was not going to keep up a war in utah ho lie had only come conic to preach reach him cruci crucified fled rev hauley ley closed by appealing to both old and young to use their own duj ment and follow the thoughts 0 gf of their own dissatisfaction irrespective ivo of fear of authority his ilis last words were in a friendly and feeling tenor inviting all to come to his church and listen to tho tile baptist doctrines ELDER BRN BEN M 1 was surprised to hear that in ten tell years the bl mormon ormon church would make headway downward and sec tho the way reverend hartley he lie docs does then again it waa was astonishing with regard to con verp versions ions to hear quantity instead of quality TO finish up with joel tho the speaker admitted that there was a partial fulfilment fulfillment of the prophecies in the times ofleter of peter but all the predictions had bad by no means been fulfilled for joel also speaks of tho the terrible day of the lord which is is to come of which even christ in matthew 4 As to baptism and Fal salvation wo we find that the tile former is to precede the latter b being an essential estial condition for it this ais ho lie proved with ample scriptural quotations showing from john III christ to nicodemus w where here it is emphatically said that a man must bo born orn from the water and the spirit also a so acts 11 II mark X XVI 1 16 again when peter went to C cornelius or nelius we find that baptism was essential for salvation it certainly is essential to enter the kingdom of 4 dod iod to be saved hance also is necessary to put on christ to be saved we must bo be baptized for paul says that it is through baptism that wo we put on 01 1 christ As to the divino authority of the tile Prop prophet liet joseph smith the file |