Show DISCOURSE ir byeller by eider elder ORSON PRATT Deliver delivery delivered 4 in it the ward assembly rooms sunday afternoon dec 15 1872 REPORTED BY DAVID W EVANS it would have been my choice this afternoon to ait alt and listen to others but having been requested queued re to address the congregation I 1 cheerfully comply having a desire in my heart that god will pour out his hib holy spirit upon me and upon the bearers so that we may be mutually edified we call ourselves the children of the most moat high god it is a term that la Is scriptural in its nature and that has bas been applied to the people of god in all ages in the hymn that was sung at the opening of orthis orthia this tula meeting this subject was more fully portrayed according to the views of the latter day saints than ir in generally expressed by rei rei gions people in the worlds world worl dm fr I 1 believe that all religious people claim ca to be and term themselves the children of god it may not be amiss to investigate for a little while the reality of this title and see if we can come to some kind of an understanding in regard to our being the sons and daughters of the most high god it is said by some that we are bis his sons and daughters only by adoption or through obedience to the gospel that we become his sons and hla his daught rs ra through being born of the water and of the spirit now 1 1 admit that it is necessary for the human family to be thus adopted there would however have been no need of this adoption if mankind had bad never become wicked and corrupt if there had bad never been any sin in the world I 1 do not think that adoption would have been necessary accord accords ing to my views and I 1 believe according to the views of the latter day saints and also of the ancient saints we were at one period legitimately his bis sons and augusters augu independent of adoption and thiu will carry us to the first ideas manifested by revelation in regard to the origin of man many people suppose when adam was placed in the garden of eden that then lne the first of the human family originated I 1 admit thag thac that was the origin as far as mans temporal existence here on the earth is concerned but had we no prior existence was that the beginning ot of man was it in reality his bis origin this to is a very important question and a correct answer thereto would certainly bo be calculated to cheer the hearts of the chi children laren of men that man had bad a secondary origin hore here on this earth and aud was placed in the garden of eden are scriptural facts which be lieve but did not our first parents and all their descendants have an existence before belore there was waa any garden of eden on this earth I 1 think it Is admitted by the whole christian world that man is a being compounded of body and spirit at least all the christian societies with w which klch lich I 1 am acquainted quain ted believe this thay all believe that within mans body or tabernacle of resh flesh and bones there dwells an immortal spirit all christian societies with per haps very few exceptions believe that this human spirit which dwells within the tab er nacle will exist after the dissolution of the body there may be some few christians who believe that the spirit is disorganized or dies between the time of death and the resurrection I 1 think this view is entertained by some same few individuals lah ish but the great mass of the human family believe that when this body falls asleep aud and crumbles back again to its mother earth the spirit still survives as an organized org nihed being or personage some however do not be lieve that the spirit is a personage they think it is something which can not be de fined something that has neither the shape nor the properties which we rive yive to any kindor kind of material bab sab substance stance the views of the are that the spirit occupies no space and has no reli relation tion to tb matter something entirety en tirey separate and distinct from matter there av are however but few in the christian worm worn who have worked themselves so far into the depths of these mysteries as they term them as to believe in such absurdities as aa these I 1 could not believe it for one moment I 1 never did toi Tod to suppose that there is a spirit inman in man an and that that spirit has no shape no likeness and occupies no space agthe as the inform us in their writings is something that I 1 do not be lieve nor ever have believed and never could believe unless I 1 became perfectly beside myself and deran deraD deranged ged in my mind we as latter day saints believe that the spirits that occupy these tabernacles have torm lorm and likeness similar to the hu hud man tabernacle ot 01 course there my moy be deformities existing in connection with the outward tabernacle which do not exist in connection with the spirit that inhabits it these tabernacles become deformed by accident in various ways sometimes at birth but this may ruay not altogether or in any degree deform the spirits that dwell dwelt within them therefore we believe that the spirits which occupy the bodies of the human family are more or less in the resemblance ol 01 the tabernacles now a question arises if this spirit can exist separate and independent of the tabernacle when the tabernacle dies is it unreasonable to suppose that it could exist before the tho bernaola tabernacle ta was formed this is an important question and in my estla estia mation there is nothing absurd or unreal conable in the least dearee degree in believing that that personage that we call the intelligent spirit which can exist between death and the resurrection separate and distinct from the body could also have had bad an existence before the body was formed that Is a pre pro existence this is a scriptural doctrine for there are many passages in scripture which in my estimation prove that man wan had bad a pre pro existence if we turn to the first and second chapters ot of genesis we shall find it clearly indicated that man bad had an existence before he be was placed in the garden of eden in the first chapter of genesis we are told that god made the earth and the seas and the draiss krass and the herbs and the trees in about six days of time we also read that on the fifth day of the creation be made the fish and fowls that on the sixth day he made the animals and last of all that he made man m male maie ale aie and female created ie be them this seems to have been the last work of I 1 creation on the sixth day roid reid on still further in the second chapter of genesis nd we are informed that on the seventh day there was not yet a man to till tilt the ground now how are we going to reconcile this with that which is stated in the pre pro preceding ceding reding chapter on the fifth day he be made the fowls and the fish and on the sixth day he made the animals before he made mang mans man and on orf the seventh day there was not yet a man to till tili the ground and then ihen hen wo w are informed about mans being placed in the garden on the seventh day and also that on that day the beasts were formed and brought to ane man to see what be would call them this beems seems to have been another department of work that the lord accomplished on bu the morning of the seventh day he planted a garden on the seventh day in eden b he placed the man jn in that garden on the seventh day and then we are informed that he be brought the beasts of bf the field and the various animals that he baa bad made before beford the man and man gave names to them on the sabbath day but on the sixth day they were made maie male and female I 1 reconciled reconcile this by giving a pre pro existence to man such to is my faith I 1 b believe that man bad had an exi existence 8 tence before the lord commenced the areat great temporal work of creation so faras fsr far as thi this planet is concerned how long he had bad existed prior to the formation of this planet I 1 do not know but it is certain god seems to have formed the spiritual part of it in the six days and when it comes to the temporal part that seems beems to have been the work of the seventh day on the seventh day the bible sa says bays ya that god ended his bis work he did not altogether end it on the sixth but hut hounded he ho ended it on the seventh day when we come to new je revelation which god has vouchsafed ged led to give to his bis people in these latter times I 1 this subject is made very plain and on these new revelations in connection with the old what whit little light we can gain through the tho hymn that was sung at the opening ot of the meeting was founded when shall I 1 regain thy presence 11 as expressed in the first verse showing that we once were in his bis presence and existed where he be is but for tor some reason we have been banished bani ahod shod and that when we are redeemed we shall return again or as one ot of tho the inspired writers has it the spirit shall return to god who gave it this re return turner io g gor kot of the spirit to god who gave it elearly shows to my nind mind that the spirit once existed with god and dwelt in bis his presence otherwise other wise wite the word Al return would be inapplicable if I 1 were going to china it would be inapplicable for mo me to say I 1 am ani returning to china why bt bb cause I 1 never have been there consequently theao the word rd return would be an improper word so in regard to the saying of the prophet it would be entirely improper tobay to say that after the body crumbles bies hies to dust the spirit would return to gou goa who gave it if it never had been there jesus seems to have been a pattern in all things pertaining to his bis bret brethren heen been and I 1 we find that he had bad a previous existence bis his spirit existed before be came and erna cled in the flesh this is abundantly proved in be the scriptures in the prayer which he be offered to his hin heavenly father beseeching him to make his hib dib dit disciples caples one he says thou me with that glory which I 1 bad had with thee before the world was now if jesus dwelt with the father before the world was why not the rest of the family or in oiher other words the rest rost 0 of the spirits it certainly was not bis his tb tabernacle which dwelt there before the world was for he came in the meri merl meridian dian dlan of time and bis his spirit entered a tabernacle of flesh and bones and was bom of P woman just the same as all the rest rost of the human family what then is the meaning of that scripture which speaks of jesus being the elder eider brother it certainly could pot have reference to him bim being the eldest so far as his natural birth on this earth was concerned for he be certainly was not the eldest for generation after generation had bad preceded him during the four adur thousand years which bad passed away from the time of creation until he was born bom but yet he is called the elder brother in another scripture Sip ture it is said of him bim that he was the firstborn first born of every creature this would imply then that jesus so far as the great family of man is concerned iwas was the kirbt debt born orthe odthe of the whole of them how bua aua when was he born he was born in t orm omm W eternal world not bis his flesh and bones but that intelligent spirit which dwelt within bis his tabernacle was born before this world was made and he be seems to have been the first spirit that was born and for this reason he became the eder eden e der drother brother and we are told in many Scrip scripture turen in the new now testament that we are his brethren and that he Is ia not ashamed to call his bis breth broth ren I 1 look upon him as having the same origin as we had only be was the eldest and if he be was wab born in the eternal world thousands of years ego why not all the rest of his brethren so far as their spirits are concerned concern edT I 1 know that the objection will immediately arise arle in the minds minda of individuals divi duals duels who have not rennet rennei ted led on this subject iffe if we were intelligent p personages rAo nageb nages thousands of yeara years ago and d dwelling illig liing in the presence of god and of jesus our elder eider brother how bow is it that we have no remembrance of anything that transpired in our pre existence I 1 answer this question by saying that when we came into this world irom from our former state cf r existence and had our spirits enclosed within these mortal tabernacles it bad a tendency to take away our memories so BO far as the past was concerned it did so in relation to jestis jebas he had great greit know knowledge ledee before becore be was born into this world sufficient to create the heavens and the earth bence benee we read in the hebrews that godby his son made the worlds this was wag before jeaba jeskus came here and he be must then have been the possessor of great knowledge to have been able to do that but when he be took upon himself flesh and bones did he forget this ibis knowledge we read in the scriptures spes speaking k ing or of jesus coming comin dhere ghere hone hene and taking a body bod y or flesh and bones that in his hid hum humiliation U lat I 1 on his judgment was taken lz n away W what at humiliation his descending sc Pe from the presence of god his father and descending below all things his bis judgment was taken away that is hin him remembrance of things that were past and that knowledge which while in the presence of his father enabled enibel ed him to make worlds and he had to begin at the first principles of knowledge just the same as fit alt ait I 1 his brethren who came here in the flesh we read rend that jesus as he be grew in stature grew grow also in wisdom and knowledge if he be had bad possessed all wisdom and haa had not forgotten that which he formerly possessed how was it that he could increase in wisdom as be increased in stature it shows clearly that the wisdom which he had bad possessed thousands of years before bad lor tor a wise purpose been taken from him his judgment was taken away and he be left as it were in the very depth of humility beginning g at the very first principles of kno knowledge ladge and growing up from grace to grace as the scriptures say from one degree to another until he received a falness from his eather hather then when he be did regain a all hla his previous knowledge and wisdom be had the falness of the father within him in other othen words in him dwelt all the ful ness noss of tho the godhead bodily now if his bla knowledge was forgotten and his bis judgment taken away why not oura we find this to be the case ease what person among all the human family can compre bend what tooka ace iu his hla first existence no one it is blotted from the a emory and I 1 think there Is ia great wisdom manifested in with withholding bolding the knowledge of our previous existence why because we could not liot if we had all our preexistent pre existent knowledge accompanying us into this world show to our father in the heavens and to the ibe heavenly holt kosi that we would be in all things obedient in other words word swe we could not be tried as the lord designs to try us ua here in this state of existence to qualify us ua nor tor a higher state hereafter i in order to try the children of men there must be a degree of 0 knowledge withheld from them for it would be note no temptation m bothem to them it they could understand from the beginning the consequences of their acts and the nature and results of this and that temptation but in order that we may prove ou ourselves neives before the heavens obedient and faitha faithful al jn in all things we have to begin bekin at the v very first principles of knowledge and be tri trl tried ryd from knowledge to knowledge and from frae era e to grace until like our eloer elcer brother brothen we finally overcome and triumph over al ais ail our |