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Show ET) That's what they say. EA) I find nuclear power very unappealing, first of all because it’s undemocratic; it centralizes control. It puts our lives and livelihoods in the hands of a very few people, probably one big utility, one big public agency over which the public has very little control. And of course there are the well known dangers of it. (Editor's note: Abbey gave this interview five years before the nuclear disaster at Chernoble) There’s no guarantee that these nuclear plants won't break down, melt down and maybe force the evacuation of the entire city of Phoenix someday. And it’s a very expensive form of power; I don’t know the economic details but it may turn out to cost more that it’s worth...simply in dollars. Nuclear power has been a heavily subsidized industry so far, subsidized by us taxpayers in one way or another and that’s how it has survived as long as it has. I doubt if nuclear power would last another 10 years if we had a really free market economy. It’s expensive and it’s dangerous and it’s undemocratic, and uranium mining of course also destroys rangeland again, in some cases wilderness. And the problem of what to do with the nuclear waste has still not been solved. Nobody wants these nuclear waste dumps in their own state. standard of living, but a simplifying of our way of living. And I think it would be good for us...be good for us to do more walking, or to ride bicycles to school instead of driving a car. These are old ideas of course, people have been preaching them now for ten or fifteen years. I don’t have any new ideas on the subject...just repeat the old ones. I think there’s a great popular support for these basic ideas...great popular support for environmentalism, all the polls, all the elections seem to suggest it. Most of the voters want their clean air, they want their clean air laws not only maintained, but strengthened. Most people seem to want our wilderness area preserved. Most people apparently would prefer to live a more outdoorsy sort of life. To get away from the big cities, and even the suburbs now. Apparently more and more people are moving back to small towns or even to farms if they can manage it. But I think environmentalism has popular support, has majority support, but we don’t have the money...we don’t have the power to translate that popular support into political action or have the power to translate that popular support into political action or at least not into enough political action. Power still lies in the hands of corporations and those with lots of money to throw around. ET) You've made some appearances for an environmental group called Earth First!, and certainly a couple of your books have talked about sort of ecological sabotage, or taking things into your own hands. Do you see that as a coming thing, or is it already here? EA) Well I’m not going to advocate sabotage publicly on the federal airwaves here. But I think there probably will be more of it if the conflict between conservation and development becomes more intense, and it the politicians fail to follow the popular will on the matter. I think a lot of people are going to become very angry and they’re going to resort to illegal methods to try to slow down the destruction of our national resources, our I'm not much of a prophet. I suppose the conflict between conservation and development will grow more intense each year with the pressure of a growing population and economic demands. That's all I can see in the future, more conflict. more arguments,more shouting. wilderness, our forests, mountains, deserts. ET) interest in environmentalism organizations. People always and boost membership in all sorts of conservation get concerned about things that they are in danger of losing...though it often comes too late. I think America has led the way in this field. We are probably the most environmentally conscious, big industrial nation on earth, getting the parks established over a century ago. First nation on earth to do that. Good thing we did too. I’m not much of a prophet. I suppose the conflict What that will lead to I hate to think. If the conflict becomes violent and physical then I’m pretty sure the environmentalists will mostly What is the future of environmentalism as you see it? EA) Well think that it has a very good future. The worse the environment gets, the more popular environmentalism becomes. People like James Watt do us a lot of good to spur between conservation and development will grow more intense each year with the pressure of a growing population and economic demands. That’s all I can see in the future, more conflict, more arguments, more shouting. Possibly if the economy stays in a recession long enough, a majority of us will gradually adapt to a simpler, a more frugal way of life. Not make such enormous demands on the land, the air, and the water. But there’s so many of us in the United States already, 240 million I guess and still growing.(Editor’s note: Since this interview the U.S. population has increased by another 30 million, almost double the current population of Australia.) The rate of growth is supposed to be slowing down, but the total keeps growing. When I was a kid in school, we were taught that the population of the United States was 120 million, as if that were a fixed, permanent figure. And now it’s apparently just about doubled. And all of us want to maintain our American standards of living. We like having these end up in prison or shot dead in their tracks. So I hope we can save what's left of Arizona and the United States by legal, political means and I still think we can. I still vote in elections...even though there doesn’t seem to be much to vote for or against, when there’s not much choice. I think if enough people get sufficiently concerned, why we can still make changes...needed changes in this country by political methods...God, I hope so., ET) Do you see any positive thing...We've been talking about a lot of things that are pretty unpleasant. Is there something happening that you see in the world today that might be interpreted as a positive thing? EA) Oh, the arts are thriving. Music, literature, dance, sculpture, painting, seems to me in this country and in most of the world there's a great burgeoning artistic activity. I think modern technology has created a sort of world culture which may in some ways actually be bringing people together or creating an international culture, and that may turn out to be a good thing. Well I'm not going to advocate sabotage on the public airwaves... But I think there probably will be more of it if the conflict between conservation and development becomes more intense, and if the _ politicians fail to follow the popular will, nice little houses, electricity, running water, cars and pickup trucks and motor boats; its hard to give up all of these technological toys. We wouldn’t have to give them up in fact, if we had a small population. I guess I’m sort of a nut on the subject of planned parenthood. I think we should plan it a lot more intensively. I’d be in favor or revising the income tax structures in such a way as to reward single people, childless couples, penalize heavy breeders. Make people that have more than say two children pay extra taxes instead of less. Make that a national public policy to encourage small families. And that means cutting off immigration too. Restricting it to a very low level. These are very delicate, touchy subjects, especially here in Arizona. And that’s why I bring it up. I don’t like to talk about it. Makes me sound like a racist and an elitist. But I talk about it because apparently no one else will. The politicians won’t touch the subject of course. And the chamber of commerce doesn’t care, they welcome a growing population. That means more demands for more goods...more extensive exploitation of the land and water and the air. Strip mining the ranges, and clear cutting the forests, and damming the last of the free-flowing rivers. But I think if we're going to have a decent future in this country, and I’m only speaking of the United States, the rest of the world is...most of it is in much worse shape than we are. If our children and ndchildren are going to have a decent life in this country, we're going to have to reduce the total population gradually by attrition, letting old farts like me die off...cutting off immigration, especially illegal immigration, gradually adopting, adapting to a simpler lifestyle...doing without more things. Giving up all of our gadgets...or making them so expensive that you have to choose. So you could have a car or a pickup truck but not both, that’s kind of ridiculous. Things like that, a gradual...I wouldn’t call it a reducing of the Nuclear power has made war less appealing than ever. Hydrogen bombs take all of the fun out of war. I think there’s an enormous amount of goodwill and good feeling being shared around the world, people visiting one another. Visiting one another's countries and lands, getting to learn something about each other. But this is in a race against the other catastrophe of overpopulation, war, hunger, civil war, revolution. Not that I’m against revolutions...I think may of them are necessary and therefore are justified. I’m not antitechnology either. I like all of our gadgets and toys, it’s just the scale of them that I think is doing us harm. As I’ve written, I’m very much in favor of space exploration for example, I think it’s a great adventure for humanity insofar as we can all share in it. But I think it should be supported by voluntary contributions only. Not by compulsory taxation under threat of prison and death. The Sierra Club gets by on voluntary contributions and so should NASA, and moon shots, and space travel. Let those things be financed by people who are willing to support them. Good things, I’m trying to think of good things! z You can still get good cigars. I’m impressed by the young people that are growing up around us. They seem to be healthier more athletic and brighter than ever. At least the ones who haven’t been lobotomized by too much television and Newsweek and Time. 1 suppose for every danger in the contemporary world you can find a corresponding avenue of hope, an opportunity for true progress, as opposed to mere quantitative growth. Probably never before in human history have so many been so keenly aware of what our continued on next page... TOMTILE Thanks Abbey... GA ‘eas. oY: some beauty left out there to FINE ART PHOTOGRAPHY 61 N. Main St. Moab, UT 84532 (435) 259-9808 (888) 479-9808 E-MAIL: tillphot@lasal.net INTERNET: www.tomtill.com Because of you, there's still photograph and remember. Tom Till |