Show Sands Heard By Committee NEW TORK Nov 20 Allegation Allegations s tending to implicate men now and formerly for tor- merl merly connected with the shipping g board hoard with alleged collusion in securing contracts for the Wallace Wa-Ba-ce Downey ShipbUilding Ship Ship- Shipbuilding building company of New York were were e made today by Tucker K Sands a witness witness witness wit wit- ness before the senate Investigating g committee The men named and alleged to have hav e participated in a a. distribution of more mor ee e than were were- R. R W. W Boiling Bolling law in of President Wilson Vilson an and d now treasurer of the shipping board Lester formerly secreta secretary of th the e ee board John Cranor a representative e of the Downey company and Sands He lie testified he received receive d the money as notes some of which dh h ds he discounted and at different times time s described payments to Boiling and Sis Sis- ler as both payments and loans H Halso He e also asserted that the money was to b be e ee er understood as a commission to him mm ro for r securing a loan from the bank to th the e shipbuilding company with which th the ee e witness was connected REP REPORTER ORTER TESTIFIES The testimony of Sands was preceded preceded preceded pre pre- ceded by that of A. A W. W McCann a re reporter reporter reporter re- re porter who swore he had secured from Sands an affidavit detailing the trans trans- action McCann further testified that when he took the affidavit to Sands to sign he declined to do so on advice ice of his attorney Previous to submitting the affidavit however McCann said he had taken it to the shipping board and had it photographed One copy carrying carryIng carrying carry carry- ing notations in what was testified to tobe tobo tobo bo be Sands' Sands han handwriting 1 and which Sands testified to being correct except that some of the facts may be a little different was presented by McCann in evidence The document however was not made a part of the stenographers stenographers' stenographers stenographers' stenographers stenographers' minutes BOLLING TO SHARE Sands said he be did not think Boiling Dolling ever got a cent from anybody for aiding aiding aid aid- ing lag to get a contract that contract that money given him was a loan Later he stuck to a statement that Boiling Bolling was to get his share of ot the transaction transaction that that he gave and that he had loaned Sis Sis- Sis Sis- ler for fon one of his companies on his note which note he still has He said he had never had any contI with Boiling Bolling He lie also told of a purchase purchase purchase pur pur- chase by him from Boiling Bolling of a lot for Sands testified he was under indictment indictment indict indict- ment meat for allowing a company to overdraw over over- draw draw a a shipping company in which I Iwas Iwas iwas was interested He testified he was then cashier of the Commercial National National National Na Na- bank of Washington He lie also testified he had endeavored to secure Mr 11 Boiling's Dollings Influence to have this case settled d. d THE AFFIDAVIT AFFIDAVIT This document says Chairman I Walsh informed the witness le referring erring i to the that is to tobe tobe be divided ut the tho following manner to be paid in one lot and equally i divided in the sum of for each of the four of us us Boiling Cranor Cranor Cra Cra- Cranor nor and myself Mr Cranor was to share too Mr Walsh asked Yes sir The Tho representative of Mr Downey Yes sir And you say During the negotiations negotiations negotiations Mr Downey came to Washing Washing- ton lie He ratified the agreement whereby whereby whereby where where- by compensation was to be paid I think I did the witness replied FACTS IN DOUBT Sands said he Introduced Cranor to Boiling Bolling and He lie testified to re receiving receiving receiving re- re the notes from the tho representative tive of Downey but added there was was' one thing he would have to look up referring to the tho document and that was whether I paid Mr BollIng BollIng Bolling Boll- Boll Ing any of tho the proceeds of these notes Dont you know you nev never r paid him hima a a. cen cent t Mr Walsh asked I dont don't recall that I did pay him on this deal I dont don't think I did Sands then testified ho he had purchased purchased pur pur- chased a lot from Boiling and that he still owed DOlling Boiling He lis also testified fied to asking Boiling Dolling to intercede for him with the department I of justice to I get the case ase against him brought by the bank out of of jus jus- 1 i i tice Mr Boiling Dolling had refused he I I fi fled fied PAID FOR INTRODUCTION I So Mr Cranor came to W Washington I and had several conferences with you ou and Mr l Boiling Bolling and Mr inquired In in- in Mr Walsh Yes sir replied Sands And An you were to use your influence with these two gentlemen I simply Introduced them that's all What were you to get money for for for- this introduction I That is what I thought He lie said ld Mr Downey insisted that the ostensible consideration for these I i notes should be for services of Sands in procuring a loan for Downey RECEIVED He said lie he did procure a loan for I Downey amounting to which 1 he said was very favorable for the bank that it was to be left on oa de de- de- de posit Sands testified that in all he received in notes from Downey Asked why he did not get the balance of the he alleged was promised he said Mr Downey raised such a kick I rebated rebated gave gave him back one note and agreed to rebate more BOLLING REFUSED Sands was asked how much much money Mr Boiling Dolling did get I do not think Mr erot goot ot any Sands said Why didn't he get it Because he would not take It Sands replied And he never knew he was to get it Mr 1 Walsh asked Well Veil I suppose he expected to I get it And did you not promise him any I I think I promised him sure that i he Tle would get his part of the fee when we ve got the money REFERS T TO DOCUMENT Well Mr Walsh asked reading from the if he got got no money how came it you said In this document It was ras always understood by Mr Boiling Bolling and among us that Mr 1 Boiling Dolling was to receive from the proceeds of ot the discount of the notes but for some son reason he became worried I and would not accept the balance of the still due I had in the tho meantime I advanced to him In different t i sums approximately approximately ap- ap I proximately 1800 That is correct replied Sands The witness had testified that he loaned Mr Boiling Bolling 1800 GAVE IT AS LOAN to Chairman Replying Walsh's questions questions ques ques- as to which of his statements was correct Sands said What I 1 put in there is correct I How did you give him that 1800 I I 1 gave him as a loan ga about 1850 or maybe mabe 1950 Did you let Mr have any money that way Mr Walsh shot back I 1 loaned one of his companies that he W was tS in I think and I think I I gave him about I 1 I cannot say ex ex- He lie said it was a gravel company in which Mr was interested and added he his note GOT PART BACK Did Mr Boiling Bolling ever repay you ou the i 1800 he lie borrowed I think he gave me ins back about bout lIe He still owes you OU the balance then i Yes sir If you have haye no note other evi I evl-I dence of that loan how are you going go- go j gO-j ing to collect it if it be he refuses to pay Well said Sands I do not ever I expect to collect it I didn't expect I to collect it when I loaned it I I thought he would be entitled to that as his part of the commission Congressman Kelley Keiley asked the witness witness wit wit- ness Was Vas this a sort of a conspiracy between you and Cranor to use Mr 1 Boiling Bolling in this transaction and you ou to keep the money all of it No it was not intended to do that tho the witness replied Did Mr Boiling BOlling say he would see the parties who would let the tract contract contract con con- No sir Sands also said Boiling did not say he would use his influence and when asked k d why ho he was to give ivo him nt orf ri 01 CL money it If he perform was not goin going to any service Sands replied Well Veil he and Mr gether worked to together to- to THEIR DUTIES Now here hero are twp men In tion with connection connection the Kelley said shipping board Mr They are aro not however connected with the tracts You letting of con con- agreed to apiece Now I ask pay them you what were they to do Not apiece Sands said Fifteen thousand dollars to go to Mr Cranor was as Now what was your understand ing with Mr Boiling Bolling as to what was to do he Mr 11 Kelley asked Mr Boiling Bolling was not to do anything further than to help with Mr Why did you ou seek to blacken Mr Boiling's reputation by consenting to tol this statement in ia this document Mr 1 Kelley Keiley asked Well VeIl he got about 1800 You said he borrowed that from you Well VeIl I 1 put it as s a loan on m at mj i bool books s. s because I thought it would b better as a loan until he got read reads to repay it But it really was a j part of thi this transaction tion wasn't it Yes sir Did you not tell Mr Walsh was not No o. sir J I did not say so RECEIVED MONEY Then Mr l Kelley continued h hj really did get 1800 out of the atone mOne you obtained from th the discount 0 oj these notes The first first- proceeds eeds yes jes es si sit Sands said a You swear that Mr Boiling re at 1800 out of the money yo received note from discounting the firs Sands then said sald he had put it do dow as a loan because it would look bet ter and not because se it was any different Sands also testified he had paid Cranor Did you pay Mr l his Mr Kelley KHe asked k d. d L J. UK i 1 loaned him aim and think I paid him What do you mean by loaned him hini himl five fhe and paid him five PAID AND LOANED I paid him five around about Cit fite in m mone money and then I loaned him Out of the proceeds of ot this fir first firs t note r I dont don't l know now about the proceed s sor of or the first note I think I let hUn him himl have haxe about of the first not Then I loaned him for his compan which he has not paid me me more He lie paid me back o o of that |